I believe we still operate on an innocent until proven guilty.
Do you wish to change this?
Don't you expect to be treated this way?
If so, why do you have a different standard for others?
THIS is insane....
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Do you wish to change this?
Don't you expect to be treated this way?
If so, why do you have a different standard for others?
You must have been educated in an Ivy-League skool...
Easy everyone. Yes, this is going to get uglier before it's done. On the other hand rjundi, in answer to your upside down demand, don't forget that we've by now run many thousands of patrols like the fateful one 3/1 took to Haditha. And you know how often they get blown up and shot at. I have one good friend who got bombed on one and ended up with a thumb-sized piece of shrapnel lodging about an inch from his aorta. Thankfully, he is fully recovered. Anyway, this happens virtually every day over there, and the normal thing is to follow the appropriate procedures, care for the wounded, and abort or press on with the mission as the circumstances dictate. I'd say that on the whole, the very young Marines, Soldiers and Sailors on those exceptionally difficult, stressful, and frightening patrols have done a good job maintaining control.
I don't know (nor do I particularly care) where he was educated, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't spent much time patrolling the dusty, hot, and hostile roads in Iraq or Afganistan.quote:
Originally posted by ScottB:
You must have been educated in an Ivy-League skool...
People don't understand war. Unless you've been shot at you cannot understand what a soldier goes through. (I have not been). So, for the average Joe - it is near impossible to understand completely. So, I look VERY LOW on people who criticize our soldiers.
At least we arn't burning entire villages to the ground like past wars
. But when you have the enemy hiding in schools, children's playgrounds, - what can you do???
At least we arn't burning entire villages to the ground like past wars
Goes without saying, my friend.quote:
Originally posted by ekpolk:
I don't know (nor do I particularly care) where he was educated, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't spent much time patrolling the dusty, hot, and hostile roads in Iraq or Afganistan.quote:
Originally posted by ScottB:
You must have been educated in an Ivy-League skool...
I am hoping none of my children decide to go to a major university as I am sick to my stomach of the socialist drivel being pounded into our youth.
Thank G-O-D for our military and their families.
Scott
All of a sudden some lawyers don't seem to ** so bad after all.
I was thinking the same thing, but didn't want to detract from the topic - thanksquote:
Originally posted by Al:
All of a sudden some lawyers don't seem to ** so bad after all.
Scott
If I needed a lawyer ekpolk would do me just fine. And it's strange to us how Americans find politics in everything. Here it's just not that important.
If you need someone to protect or defend you, the U.S. military does just fine.
Thanks guys. Just remember that the guys who deserve the real credit and kudos are the 18-20 year-olds who are out there "on the line" every day facing the cowards with their courage.
Thanks ekpolk - you singlehandedly have helped redeem my vile sourness I have developed for all lawyers.
As for Iraq, I pray daily the country will get their act together so we can get those men home ASAP. IMHO they are actually on the right track and moving with some haste, considering the state they were in before and onslaught by homicidal terrorists. We are not getting the whole story, some folks just don't realize it.
As for Iraq, I pray daily the country will get their act together so we can get those men home ASAP. IMHO they are actually on the right track and moving with some haste, considering the state they were in before and onslaught by homicidal terrorists. We are not getting the whole story, some folks just don't realize it.
A few more will be joining Private Federico Merida National Guard doing 25yrs for killing a 17yr old Iraqi National guardsman. And as I said earlier 8 Servicemen Charged With Murder.
Case Involves Iraqi Civilian Killed in April
(CBS News) WASHINGTON Seven Marines and a sailor have been charged with murder in the April death of an Iraqi civilian, the Marine Corps said Wednesday.
All eight also were charged with kidnapping, according to a Marine statement issued at Camp Pendleton, Calif. Other charges include conspiracy, larceny and providing false official statements.
Separately, the U.S. military in Iraq announced that murder charges were filed against a fourth Army soldier in the shooting deaths May 9 of three civilians who had been detained by U.S. troops. Spc. Juston R. Graber, 20, of the 101st Airborne Division was charged with one count of premeditated murder, one count of attempted premeditated murder, one count of conspiracy to commit murder, and making a false official statement.
On Monday the military had announced that three soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division were charged with murder and other offenses in connection with the May 9 killings. It was not clear why charges against the fourth soldier were not announced until Wednesday.
In the case of the April killing of an Iraqi civilian, the allegation is that Marines pulled an unarmed man from his home on April 26 and shot him to death without provocation. Seven Marines and one Navy corpsman from the Pendleton-based 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment were taken out of Iraq in late May and put in the confinement at Pendleton pending the filing of charges.
The Marine Corps identified the eight as: Marine Sgt. Lawrence G. Hutchins III, Marine Cpl. Trent D. Thomas, Navy Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class Melson J. Bacos, Marine Lance Cpl. Tyler A. Jackson, Marine Pfc. John J. Jackson, Marine Lance Cpl. Jerry E. Shumate Jr., Marine Lance Cpl. Robert B. Pennington, and Marine Cpl. Marshall L. Magincalda.
The case is separate from the alleged killing by other Marines of 24 Iraqi civilians at Haditha last November. A pair of investigations related to that case are still under way and no criminal charges have been filed.
The accused in the current case will be assigned military lawyers at no cost, although they have the choice of hiring their own civilian attorneys. Lt. Gen. John Sattler, the senior commander at Pendleton, will decide whether and how to proceed with preliminary hearings known in the military justice system as Article 32 proceedings. Those in turn could lead to courts-martial for some or all eight.
On May 24 the Marines announced that Maj. Gen. Richard C. Zilmer, the commander of all Marine forces in Iraq, had asked for a criminal investigation after a preliminary probe.
Together, the Hamdania and Haditha cases have generated international criticism of the U.S. and unfavorable publicity for the Marine Corps.
Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine commandant, visited Iraq to reinforce the importance of adhering to ethical standards.
"As commandant I am gravely concerned about the serious allegations concerning actions of some Marines at Haditha and Hamdania," Hagee told a Pentagon news conference June 7. "I can assure you that the Marine Corps takes them seriously."
"As commandant I am the one accountable for organization, training and equipping of Marines," he added. "I am responsible and I take these responsibilities quite seriously."
Case Involves Iraqi Civilian Killed in April
(CBS News) WASHINGTON Seven Marines and a sailor have been charged with murder in the April death of an Iraqi civilian, the Marine Corps said Wednesday.
All eight also were charged with kidnapping, according to a Marine statement issued at Camp Pendleton, Calif. Other charges include conspiracy, larceny and providing false official statements.
Separately, the U.S. military in Iraq announced that murder charges were filed against a fourth Army soldier in the shooting deaths May 9 of three civilians who had been detained by U.S. troops. Spc. Juston R. Graber, 20, of the 101st Airborne Division was charged with one count of premeditated murder, one count of attempted premeditated murder, one count of conspiracy to commit murder, and making a false official statement.
On Monday the military had announced that three soldiers of the 101st Airborne Division were charged with murder and other offenses in connection with the May 9 killings. It was not clear why charges against the fourth soldier were not announced until Wednesday.
In the case of the April killing of an Iraqi civilian, the allegation is that Marines pulled an unarmed man from his home on April 26 and shot him to death without provocation. Seven Marines and one Navy corpsman from the Pendleton-based 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment were taken out of Iraq in late May and put in the confinement at Pendleton pending the filing of charges.
The Marine Corps identified the eight as: Marine Sgt. Lawrence G. Hutchins III, Marine Cpl. Trent D. Thomas, Navy Hospital Corpsman 3rd Class Melson J. Bacos, Marine Lance Cpl. Tyler A. Jackson, Marine Pfc. John J. Jackson, Marine Lance Cpl. Jerry E. Shumate Jr., Marine Lance Cpl. Robert B. Pennington, and Marine Cpl. Marshall L. Magincalda.
The case is separate from the alleged killing by other Marines of 24 Iraqi civilians at Haditha last November. A pair of investigations related to that case are still under way and no criminal charges have been filed.
The accused in the current case will be assigned military lawyers at no cost, although they have the choice of hiring their own civilian attorneys. Lt. Gen. John Sattler, the senior commander at Pendleton, will decide whether and how to proceed with preliminary hearings known in the military justice system as Article 32 proceedings. Those in turn could lead to courts-martial for some or all eight.
On May 24 the Marines announced that Maj. Gen. Richard C. Zilmer, the commander of all Marine forces in Iraq, had asked for a criminal investigation after a preliminary probe.
Together, the Hamdania and Haditha cases have generated international criticism of the U.S. and unfavorable publicity for the Marine Corps.
Gen. Michael Hagee, the Marine commandant, visited Iraq to reinforce the importance of adhering to ethical standards.
"As commandant I am gravely concerned about the serious allegations concerning actions of some Marines at Haditha and Hamdania," Hagee told a Pentagon news conference June 7. "I can assure you that the Marine Corps takes them seriously."
"As commandant I am the one accountable for organization, training and equipping of Marines," he added. "I am responsible and I take these responsibilities quite seriously."
Sprintman - we can read the "news". They are "charged".....NOT convicted. I'm not sure where you copped this attitude of guilt before a trial. Is that how Aus works?
We are at war. Thank *** war is not perfect. Stuff happens, but it does not mean (despite your interpretation along with our media) there is complete chaos. It also does not mean in every case the allied troops, the good guys, are guilty.
PS I've yet to see you take issue with al queda's humane treatment of POW's....or old folks in homes...or women and children on buses...being slaughtered....
We are at war. Thank *** war is not perfect. Stuff happens, but it does not mean (despite your interpretation along with our media) there is complete chaos. It also does not mean in every case the allied troops, the good guys, are guilty.
PS I've yet to see you take issue with al queda's humane treatment of POW's....or old folks in homes...or women and children on buses...being slaughtered....
Pablo, here, here.
They just assured that the two U.S soldiers kidnapped didn't have a chance. Soldiers know better or should. As for Al Queda scum there are no words to cover them. And our soldiers there say it is 'complete chaos'. Theres' talk now of bringing them home soon after the Japanese pull out. We are security for the Japanese there, quite ironic really when you think of our two countries past.
I hope a third party can be utilized clear(hopefully) these allegations. Sorry I have no faith in our miltary investigating themselves and our government presenting "the facts". I recall the "facts" in order to start this mess. Distortion is performed by our press, government, and military to achieve a goal. Don't drink the kool-aid.
I went to what some call a "public" Ivy, University of Vermont for Civil Engineering. For those who think going to college especially Ivy league molds minds I think otherwise. College opens and broadens minds. Its the individual that is close minded.
[ June 21, 2006, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: rjundi ]
I went to what some call a "public" Ivy, University of Vermont for Civil Engineering. For those who think going to college especially Ivy league molds minds I think otherwise. College opens and broadens minds. Its the individual that is close minded.
[ June 21, 2006, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: rjundi ]
I don't want too put words in Sprintmans mouth, but I suspect he has higher expectations for Americans than he does for Al Queada.
Steve, there's over 30k police officers in NYC. Many have been convicted of crimes including murder in my lifetime.
These soldiers have been put in a terrible situation. Their enemy hides behind children and women, kills innocent bystanders and acts in the most cowardly and horrific way a human being can act.
I will not condone the murder of an innocent Iraqi. I will not convict one of our guys until their story is told.
That's just the way it is.
These soldiers have been put in a terrible situation. Their enemy hides behind children and women, kills innocent bystanders and acts in the most cowardly and horrific way a human being can act.
I will not condone the murder of an innocent Iraqi. I will not convict one of our guys until their story is told.
That's just the way it is.
I think that's a good assesment. What I haven't heard here yet is that the breakdown in military discipline in those cases is a bigger problem than a few Iraqis getting killed.
It's a very small number of our troops that have gone over the line and they need to receive a heavy penalty for it.
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