Before the 80s, most Japanese cars were considered low quality vehicles. Most Japanese consumer goods were considered to be in the same league as Chinese goods are today.
Think we'll ever see this at a Cadillac plant?
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I think poster Chewbacca may have been referring to the use of the term "Japs". Nowadays, that term is considered racist and derogatory by most. I'm not trying to be the thought- or speech-police, just hopefully clarifying.
LowDawg, you are correct. My Sister in Law works in Japan for Toyota. Also, I have done two tours in Japan while in the Navy. I am not a PC type, but the word "J" in my opionion belongs in the same category as some other derogatory terms that we have heard in recent times. I'm no crybaby for sure, but on this website, those terms have no business here.
^^^OK, my misunderstanding. I thought that J word was short for spelling out Japanese. Sort of like calling an American a Yank.
I am not saying they need to dress up. I am saying that their clothes should fit and be in good state or repair. Showing to work in clean clothes is another plus! Their is never a good excuse to live like an animal especialy when you have the means to correct it. It is about haveing pride and respect for yourself and what you do. Just about everyone with a job has running water and acess to soap. Irons are cheap and will last for 20 or more years if you do not drop them repeatedly. When my Mother and Father first got married my Mother and Father had to hand wash their clothes and line dry them. Dad worked at a metal casting plant and it was hot and dirty.A person that loath's themself and what they do will not seek to improve themselfs in any way! As a matter of fact I have made soap in the wild from suet/talo from the food I caught, potash from the fire,water and some heat. SO even in the midle of no place I made soap from what I had on hand. Standards will serve you throughout life. If they are high you get the results from them just like you do from low standards. The difference of course is in the results you get.
I can usually be found wearing a well worn Carhartt t-shirt, jeans, and a beat up pair of Red Wing boots, but you can ask anyone who I have worked for and they will not hesitate to tell you that I take a lot of pride in my work and I don't cut corners. Then again, in my line of work (fence installation, yard care, etc...), that kind of clothing is probably considered appropriate and I would spend a fortune on clothes and boots if I always wore spotless, new stuff.
There is some truth to your statement when it comes to reconstruction after WW2. The only part that you left out is that after we showed them how to build quality durable goods we joined the UAW,lit up a joint,said the ____ with it,it ain't my problem and they can't fire me. Our knowledge or shall we say our DESIRE to build quality stuff has long been gone in the U.S. auto industry.
The quality that comes out of that Lexus plant is obvious to anyone who has ever owned a LS400,430. They started from scratch in 1989 and built a V-8 that has never had any design problems that forced a change to be made in it. The UOA's of these cars show almost zero wear even at 200K miles.
You could see a plant in the Caddy company run like that if we wanted to. There is no reason why we could not have factories like that if we wanted to. The problem is that it's much easier to keep going like we are and build a Caddy that looses about 70% of it's value the first year.
There's a plant in America that builds a Chevy that has the highest resale value for all luxury cars sold in this country, whether they be German, Japanese, English or anything else.
http://www.forbesautos.com/advice/toptens/best-resale-value-2007.html
But as the article explains , resale value can be very complex and dubious and can have very little to do with "quality" Even the Accord Hybrid is on there which barely anyone seems to want to buy brand new.
http://www.forbesautos.com/advice/toptens/best-resale-value-2007.html
But as the article explains , resale value can be very complex and dubious and can have very little to do with "quality" Even the Accord Hybrid is on there which barely anyone seems to want to buy brand new.
I remember all the initial R&D Toyota put into that first big Lexus model in the late '80s (the other original model was just a dressed up Toyota). They were fairly over the top in their attention to detail and obsessiveness in making it perfect. At the time, they were not going after Cadillac, they were going after the high-end Germans. And they succeeded: big Lexus buyers rarely consider a domestic on their short list.
All the lesser Lexus models are now being bought by folks who might have bought a Cadillac, Buick or Olds 40 years ago.
I think a domestic manufacturer could make a vehicle the quality equal of the large Lexus today - if they wanted to. And therein is the issue. Focus on volume and keeping the price point down on their luxury models seems to have backfired on GM and Ford; Lexus is eating their lunches on volume, on vehicles that nevertheless cost more.
People blame the unions. And that may be a cost factor when dealing with a Toyota made stateside. But it is similarly costly to build and ship a car from Tokyo. Eighty thousand is a lot of money, but people happily pay it for the big LS, which is rolling assembly perfection. Meanwhile, Cadillac dealers are still pushing crude roadster roof covers and luggage racks on their big sedans. When was the last time you saw one of those on a big Lexus or Merc?
I would pay an extra $10-15k for a Caddy or Lincoln Mark coupe if it was genuinely built like a comparable Lexus, and not with "corporate" bin parts. Perhaps if they made fewer of them and put more craftsmanship into them. Then again, I think the first part of that formula has already happened, whether they like it or not!
One thing I like about my boring Toyota is the lack of adventures in unscheduled maintenance. Sometimes boring is good. I have a boring V8 4Runner that is absolutely bullet proof, so far, 4 years and 50k miles of hard use, off road and trailer pulling, a vehicle also built at the Tahara plant. A friend has a much more exciting Ford Explorer that has had many exciting life with lots of unscheduled maintenance. He also wins the game with more features and gadgets and he paid less, too. He got a $6k factory rebate and I had to fight tooth-n-nail for $2k off the sticker. He has also earned that $6k rebate with many trips to the dealer to fix stuff over the past three years. Sometimes boring is good.
I agree. I would be highly offended if someone called my girlfriend a ____. That's the word that my grandfather used to call the people he was sent to kill in WW2. It was also usually preceded by a word that would upset the filters here. Since the people making cars, or more broadly, are of Japanese lineage, are not currently trying to destroy Pearl Harbor, I don't think the word ____ should apply to them.
Really in 4 years and under 100k I wouldn't expect any new cars to have many probs the few that do are exceptions I think. My father has had his dodge for a while zero trips to the dealer, my buddy has a 00 Expedition that has never been back to the dealer for anything except oil change, brakes, and tires, never even changed the Trans fluid and it has 100k on it. My other buddy has a 01 GMC sierra 5.3l 4x4 that has 140k on it already tows his boat all the time never done anything to it other than the usual I would be happy with that no matter what it said on name tag. On the other hand I know someone with a Honda Odyssey that used to eat transmissions. Sometimes it just comes down luck of the draw. There is a Ford and a Toyota in the Family and there is not much difference in quality both being good IMO.
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I am not saying they need to dress up. I am saying that their clothes should fit and be in good state or repair. Showing to work in clean clothes is another plus! Their is never a good excuse to live like an animal especialy when you have the means to correct it. It is about haveing pride and respect for yourself and what you do. Just about everyone with a job has running water and acess to soap. Irons are cheap and will last for 20 or more years if you do not drop them repeatedly. When my Mother and Father first got married my Mother and Father had to hand wash their clothes and line dry them. Dad worked at a metal casting plant and it was hot and dirty.A person that loath's themself and what they do will not seek to improve themselfs in any way! As a matter of fact I have made soap in the wild from suet/talo from the food I caught, potash from the fire,water and some heat. SO even in the midle of no place I made soap from what I had on hand. Standards will serve you throughout life. If they are high you get the results from them just like you do from low standards. The difference of course is in the results you get.
I agree that they should at least wash and wear clean clothes. That being said, I have never seen these filthy GM workers you are talking about and I take offense when myself and my family members are described this way. Maybe GM workers in Canada are cleaner?
This is a typical Toyota owner's argument. Toyotas offer nothing more than reliability. I have a 4 year old Explorer with 50k miles, probably very similar to your friend's, and mine has been back to the dealer once in that time for a warranty item. Big deal. I actually $10k off sticker for my truck which has everything but leather and a sunroof (out-the-door $28k in 2003- it's an XLT 4-door Sport). There's no question in my mind that the Toyota is going to be a more reliable rig in the long run, but to deal with an uncomfortable seating position, poor fuel economy, and somewhat awkward appearance (subjective, I know), no matter how reliable it is, it isn't worth it, especially for $10k more money. Maybe things like that don't matter to you, and that's fine, but my main criterion in a vehicle purchase are 1)GOOD LOOKS, 2) Nice comfortable ride and 3) fun-to-drive. Reliability and "value" are nowhere on my list. To have something interesting, fun, and good looking, a couple extra trips to the dealer over the life of the vehicle is worth more to me than paying alot of extra dollars to have something thats as fun as a lawn mower that never breaks down.
I always like to tell people "There's more to life than reliability!" Go ride in an old Jaguar, you'll understand.
I don't disagree with your argument, since that's what you desire. But I'm not sure how you can say an Explorer is any more fun or exciting to drive than a Toyota. And I'm a Ford guy.
Not all vehicles that are "reliable" are necessarily "boring". The two are not mutually exclusive. My Accord V6 is very fun to drive, at least to me. It's not a BMW or a Jaguar, but it's not an appliance either, IMHO.
Now as for the Jaguar, I have no doubts its driving dynamics are worth the supposed extra maintenance.
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I don't disagree with your argument, since that's what you desire. But I'm not sure how you can say an Explorer is any more fun or exciting to drive than a Toyota. And I'm a Ford guy.
Not all vehicles that are "reliable" are necessarily "boring". The two are not mutually exclusive. My Accord V6 is very fun to drive, at least to me. It's not a BMW or a Jaguar, but it's not an appliance either, IMHO.
Now as for the Jaguar, I have no doubts its driving dynamics are worth the supposed extra maintenance.
Fair enough about the fun to drive factor as we are talking SUVs. However, for the most part, the Explorer is fun to drive, for an SUV, with its all independent suspension, relatively quick steering and stiffer suspension- much like your Escape is relatively fun to drive (at least the V6 versions are). For the most part with my Explorer it was more about good looks than fun-to-drive. In 2003, unless you got a "Limited" 4Runner for big $$$$, you got more gray plastic cladding than an Aztek, completely unacceptable when you're looking for a "good looking" vehicle. And I'm glad I didn't go that way becuase when you see those rigs today, they gray plastic has discolored and gotten "waves" burned into them (in all fairness, many Explorers came that way too and have suffered the same fate, they just don't have as much cladding)
While I agree that reliability and fun-to-drive are not mutually exclusive, it sure seems to be the common case! I think mostly because, to get the hottest engine any car, you have to get ALLLLLLL the options, which inherently can mean "unrelibility." More failure modes, the more possibility of failure.
When I think of fun-to-drive, I think, to me, it implies some "exclusivity" as well. My S60R, my former SVT Contour, my old SVO Mustang, a Taurus SHO, heck even my old MR2 were fun to drive and weren't seen everywhere. I think that adds to the "fun" of the vehicle. There are 6 (yes, 6!) Lexus ISXXX vehicles in my neighborhood as I leave every morning. What fun is it to have the same car as the guy down the street? In my cul-de-sac, there are two identical dark-blue V6 Accords across the street from eachother! Same wheels, interior, everything! I'd sell mine right there if that happened to me!
I don't disagree with your argument, since that's what you desire. But I'm not sure how you can say an Explorer is any more fun or exciting to drive than a Toyota. And I'm a Ford guy.
Not all vehicles that are "reliable" are necessarily "boring". The two are not mutually exclusive. My Accord V6 is very fun to drive, at least to me. It's not a BMW or a Jaguar, but it's not an appliance either, IMHO.
Now as for the Jaguar, I have no doubts its driving dynamics are worth the supposed extra maintenance.
Fair enough about the fun to drive factor as we are talking SUVs. However, for the most part, the Explorer is fun to drive, for an SUV, with its all independent suspension, relatively quick steering and stiffer suspension- much like your Escape is relatively fun to drive (at least the V6 versions are). For the most part with my Explorer it was more about good looks than fun-to-drive. In 2003, unless you got a "Limited" 4Runner for big $$$$, you got more gray plastic cladding than an Aztek, completely unacceptable when you're looking for a "good looking" vehicle. And I'm glad I didn't go that way becuase when you see those rigs today, they gray plastic has discolored and gotten "waves" burned into them (in all fairness, many Explorers came that way too and have suffered the same fate, they just don't have as much cladding)
While I agree that reliability and fun-to-drive are not mutually exclusive, it sure seems to be the common case! I think mostly because, to get the hottest engine any car, you have to get ALLLLLLL the options, which inherently can mean "unrelibility." More failure modes, the more possibility of failure.
When I think of fun-to-drive, I think, to me, it implies some "exclusivity" as well. My S60R, my former SVT Contour, my old SVO Mustang, a Taurus SHO, heck even my old MR2 were fun to drive and weren't seen everywhere. I think that adds to the "fun" of the vehicle. There are 6 (yes, 6!) Lexus ISXXX vehicles in my neighborhood as I leave every morning. What fun is it to have the same car as the guy down the street? In my cul-de-sac, there are two identical dark-blue V6 Accords across the street from eachother! Same wheels, interior, everything! I'd sell mine right there if that happened to me!
I paid $26k before tax and license for my SR5 03 V8 4Runner and it's possible that some of the xtra I paid will come back to me in resale value. One of the things that attracted me to the 4Runner was the 2UZ-FE V8 engine. It's a pretty good engine and I expect it to last a while. Another thing was that it is assembled at the Tahara plant. I actually found a note to me from an inspector in my tool kit reading in broken english that he hoped that I liked my new 4Runner and that he very carefully inspected it before signing it off and it had a stamp with "OK" on it. I get 21/22 mpg but I'm an ez driver. I use synthetic lubricants in the engine, dif and trans, and I think they help but don't know for sure. A lot of you think that the 4Runner is overrated but it's my 4Runner and I'm happy with it. If I lost it today I would buy another tomorrow. That could be counted as a yes vote from me.
Merkurwwu, I do understand your points. And I think we agree in principle. Around where I live, there aren't that many Accords, because we have the big-a$$ Toyota plant up the road that builds the Tundras, Tacomas, and Siennas. So you have a lot of Camrys and what-not, but for some reason, not many Accords. I guess the uniqueness of what we drive is greatly dependent on where we live.
Just like alot of people think the Explorer is a POS even though it is STILL the best selling SUV out there and has incredible owner loyalty. I can point to at least 5 people who have bought at least two of them and, while they may go into the shop in thier lifetimes, none of those people will ever say they're BAD vehicles.
Resale doesn't mean much to me so I don't consider it (I run my trucks until they are 20 years old) but you most certainly will get more money for your 4Runner in the end. A guy here at work just last week sold a '97 4Runner with key-scratches on the side and 142,000 miles for $8500. What is a '97 Explorer worth? Maybe $5000- if in EXCELLENT condition. (However, I think after 20 years the Explorer is worth more in scrap metal than the 4Runner
People are willing to pay for "reliability," if that's all they care about. But for my tastes, I have to give up too much to get it and it just isn't worth it to me.
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