The value of technical programs

[OVERKILL]

Since the other thread locked before this could be discussed, lets try this again.

-The development of Nuclear power and weapons.
-The Microprocessor
-Computer networking, particularly WAN technology and the Internet
-Projects like the shuttle, SR-71 Blackbird
-Various weapons programs
-Satellites

What was the foundation for all of this? Government spending at various levels, primarily for military purposes. Technical programs funded by tax dollars to give us an advantage over our adversaries be they real or imagined.

All of our advancements during and after World War II.... During the Cold War. All of these Technical programs designed to keep the US ahead of the Soviets (and the rest of the world) have led to the technology we all just take for granted now.

We have stagnated.

Why?

We were once only satisfied with being the best. By being the first. And by flaunting that to the world. A world which saw America as arrogant. And you were.

Now, we blog on Chinese-made computers sitting on our Chinese-sourced fiberboard desks through Chinese-made computer cables running to Chinese-made routers. And if we need technical support, we call up our ISP and talk to some guy in India.

Craftsman used to be an affordable, American household name. Now it's Chinese [censored] from Harbour Freight. And Craftsman sold-out.

We now buy the cheapest junk at Walmart. Nobody fixes anything anymore. Just buy another junk Chinese replacement. Lots of room in those landfills.

The US unemployment rate is much higher than other 1st-world nations. A quick look North at Canada shows a situation far less bleak. But Canada has never been as openly patriotic as the US has been.

And now we are cutting technical programs to "save money". As if the slide from accepting nothing but the best to being happy with merely mediocre wasn't embarrassing enough.

The US didn't become a global superpower by selling out. By dumping money into welfare and bailouts. The US became a global superpower by spending money to be the best. And in order to be the best, you had to have the brightest minds and a DRIVE to keep that edge. And that is something that has changed in America.

Now it is all about profits and screw your fellow man. If it can be done cheaper in China... Then that's what happens.

Money has no loyalty. And now the very programs that got us here are being stripped of their funding. I liken it to throwing the bilge pump out of a sinking ship to save weight. It makes no sense when you think about. And it sure doesn't fix the problem.

These programs are not the drain. The lost tax revenue from corporations moving off-shore, the lost tax revenue from the people that used to work there losing their jobs. The lost tax revenue from the purchases those people would be making if they were still employed. And the drain of those people now pulling money from a system that cannot afford to support them is the problem.

Technical programs make us relevant on a global scale. They are what set us apart from those who simply follow. Without that relevance.... What are we?

 

[The_Jeff]

... and to expand, why should 9th graders study science? How can they be promised good technical jobs? They can do health care, but what about engineering?

I remember someone saying that in our Mars program, we weren't just going to stuff a rocket full of money and send it into space-- that money is staying in the states, in the pockets of those who made it happen.

Or we could build shovel ready roads that will be potholed again.

Or we could just write unemployment checks.

Or we could do nothing, then gloat, neener neener neener.

 

[Y_K]

Disconnect from Reality is a big problem. The only cure that will slow the pace of diminishing attention span is a big catastrophy. Natural progression.

 

[Drew99GT]

I agree 1000% OVERKILL.

To add some input, one problem I see in the US is the overabundance of people pushing every child to go to a traditional 4 year college. Not every child needs, or more importantly, wants a 4 year degree in the history of basket weaving, and we as a society have placed WAY too much emphasis on every kid needing to go to college. To the contrary, there are many available jobs in the trades and in technology that should be filled by people with technical schooling, and thankfully, people are waking up to that fact. It used to be that the guy right out of college would be hired over someone with work experience, but businesses and companies are realizing that maybe that big plaque on the wall really isn't a precursor to a successful employee.

 

[Dave Hess]

It comes down to the lowest bidder in this modern economy. I posted last week about the new bridge in CA and the Chinese bid $400,000,000 less than what Americans companies could build it for.
http://www.npr.org/2011/09/16/140515737/california-turns-to-china-for-new-bay-bridge

50 years ago we needed those high tech advancements to stay 2-3 steps ahead of the Russians, today we don't cause they are our 'friend'.

Lots of skilled blue colar tradesmen out of work and looking for any job in their field.

 

[Torino]

Well, the basic tenets of power and control include: Mediocrity becoming the new norm. Follow the money--political contributions being prime. John--Las Vegas.

 

[Big_Kat]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
I agree 1000% OVERKILL.

To add some input, one problem I see in the US is the overabundance of people pushing every child to go to a traditional 4 year college.... It used to be that the guy right out of college would be hired over someone with work experience, but businesses and companies are realizing that maybe that big plaque on the wall really isn't a precursor to a successful employee.


This is true im some areas, but I just found out that many employers in my field of study now require a four year degree before they even glance at ones resume. That is what took me from a two year school to a four year school with in a month and a half of finding that out...

 

[Big_Kat]

Originally Posted By: LT4 Vette
today we don't cause they are our 'friend'.

This... Remember friends could turn to hated enemies in an instant... Maybe that is why they are shipping all that "wonderful" 5.56mm ammo over here....

 

[JHZR2]

Good stuff.

So long as the Rothschilds and their clan rule the roost, there is little hope. As long as there is a cheaper place to hide money, it will flow there.

I'm against parasites as much as anyone out there, against impractical compensation on all levels, etc. But so long as Joe producer is treated like goyim, and Joe consumer doesn't care, then there is no hope.

The unfortunate reality is that not everyone can be smart, talented, personable, and successful. And so long as we enable three billion people to come up in life and compete, the lower segments have to be brought down. There are just too many. Those with more and more control have higher barriers to entry.

 

[tomcat27]

Overk1ll, I wish that more people had the same understanding and vision - and then filled our government with that vision.

 

[Al]

We built our country by using natural resources, using a system that rewarded hard work, innovation, and a great work force that believed in the American dream.

The people that accomplished this development (Post Depression) were decedents of people that were in many cases the higher end of the gene pool from Europe (they had the physical strength, motivation, and smarts to leave).

Now that higher standard of living is not affordable by a county that can not match the polluting, low paid, low standard of living countries who are happy with waaaay less than we have.

We are a victim of our own success and there is no way a nation of hamburger stands and Walmarts can sustain the infrastructure end standard of life we have.

Add to that..much of our "Wealth' goes to Lawyers, a wasteful over-regulating Government (at all levels), and handouts. We are driving to the poorhouse in a rented (by borrowing) Mercedes....and the air is leaking out of the tires.

All of the above programs were of course Fostered by Government Spending...but now we are broke and no jobs to take advantage of the development.

Its the same old story.

 

[buster]

Thom Hartman and a Libertarian have it out and get to the "core" issue.



We need to take control of government BACK. It's been hijacked by the financial elite.

 

[OVERKILL]

That was hilarious!

Thom makes a fantastic argument. I don't disagree with anything he's said.

 

[Drew99GT]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
That was hilarious!

Thom makes a fantastic argument. I don't disagree with anything he's said.


You are a socialist communist!

 

[buster]

lol

 

[PandaBear]

American society as a whole is competitive.

But being competitive has a consequences: being ruthless means some of us will fall and fail. That means unemployed, social problem, income inequality, lowest quality available for the cost, crime, corruption due to concentration of power (money), etc.

To be fair the same problem exists in most post industrialization nation that is losing manufacturing base and is declining in living standard. You can say even the Germans and Canadians are facing them and soon we'll see that in Norway as their oil run out.

We are just the most aggressive one of the pack and will fall first, follow by the rest of the developed world. It is unfortunate and I don't have any recommendation or solution.

And whoever says he/she does is a freaking lying scum bag.

 

[greenjp]

I work in a technical capacity for the war machine so I have certain selfish interest in defense research.

That said, the argument against government-dictated research spending (on defense or anything else) is that the "free market" (such as it is) may/would make a better use of the same finite resources. Those resources being the financial means extracted via tax dollars (from today's citizens) and deficit spending (from tomorrow's) as well as the talents of the researchers themselves. I think this argument has a lot of merit. Unfortunately we will never have the chance to see if it's valid.

jeff

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
That was hilarious!

Thom makes a fantastic argument. I don't disagree with anything he's said.


You are a socialist communist!


Guess that makes me Canadian eh?

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: PandaBear
American society as a whole is competitive.

But being competitive has a consequences: being ruthless means some of us will fall and fail. That means unemployed, social problem, income inequality, lowest quality available for the cost, crime, corruption due to concentration of power (money), etc.

To be fair the same problem exists in most post industrialization nation that is losing manufacturing base and is declining in living standard. You can say even the Germans and Canadians are facing them and soon we'll see that in Norway as their oil run out.

We are just the most aggressive one of the pack and will fall first, follow by the rest of the developed world. It is unfortunate and I don't have any recommendation or solution.

And whoever says he/she does is a freaking lying scum bag.


Panda:

It has ALWAYS been competitive. That is how it got to where it is.....was. The decline of industry is NEW and is NOT necessary . It is an act of greed, nothing more. That is the entire reason for shipping American dollars overseas and stealing jobs from American workers, and the revenue in taxes that those people could be providing, away from America and creating more debt as the system crumbles in this vacuum.

Canada and Germany? Canada' unemployment rate has been relatively steady with only a few spikes in its history. It currently sits around 7.3%. Was 7.2% in 1976. Was 7.2% in 1989, was ~7% in 2000...... The high was 12% in 2006. Quickly dropping back to under 8% by 2008.

Germany's is almost identical to Canada. Average of below 8%, high of 12% in 2006, quickly dropping back to under 8% by 2008.

The US's unemployment history is quite different from either of those two, dipping much lower in the same time period (below 4% at one point!) and not spiking as high. But has a far greater number of spikes and a huge shift up in 2008 that has not come back down.

Sort of interesting. The Canucks and Germans had a spike in 2006 which was quickly recovered from. The US did not. However, two years later, the US had a spike and has not recovered from it. It would appear the other two "fell first" and recovered, whilst the US has not had the same experience.

 

[PandaBear]

Originally Posted By: greenjp
I work in a technical capacity for the war machine so I have certain selfish interest in defense research.

That said, the argument against government-dictated research spending (on defense or anything else) is that the "free market" (such as it is) may/would make a better use of the same finite resources.


Free market's biggest advantage (or strength) is the option of giving up and do nothing because it is not obviously profitable in the short term.

Toll road vs free to use road is the best example. In the free market, privately build roads are toll road whose best interest is not to maximize use but to maximize profit. The owner would charge high enough and would be happy to leave unused capacity to waste. Public road would expand and encourage as many user as possible for reduced congestion, with the financial goal of break even.

In technologies, you see Sovereign nation sponsored with massive amount of money to take on risk that the free market will not dare to touch. A nation that is left to completely free market will end up being a consumer nations because everything is cheap and all the businesses with job base are out competed by foreign nations, like how US is today.

So in the end, it boils down to whether a nation wants to play it safe and just let someone else make the money or pay up and take a calculated risk for a long term profit.