The next progression. Min Vs Syn.

[Francis]

Now this is a spin off of another few topics.

See I have been in and out of the Mineral vs. Synthetic debate for longer then I can remember.

I hear both sides, the odd engine builder that sware they tend to cause trouble with Push Rod style Valve trains, both with Rollers and with Flat Tappet Cams.

I hear the endless test, and "proven" results that full Synthetics only provide less ware and more performance.

I personally have always like using Diesel oils in health V8 engines as they have heaps of Zinc and Calcium, are known for being robust, and seem to deal with dirty old Diesels for well up to a 100,000,000kms under really really harsh conditions.

So the next progression would be to ask, how would a diesel oil go in a Racing?

Use a V8 Small Block Chev or Ford engine? Be say in Speedway Super Sedans as an example.

So lets break it down and see how would a high quality Zinc rich mineral Diesel oil go???

 

[toocrazy2yoo]

Well, there are already racing oils formulated for THAT task.

Diesel oil is for diesels except in very limited PCMO circumstances.

Zinc-rich motor oils in
Maybe .005% of all street cars need the zinc, and those mostly just at initial break-in. Again, cars on a track already make use of oils that are never seen on the street.

What's to break down?

 

[buster]

I believe some of the guys that have high outpout V8's with flatt tappets swear by Shell Rotella 5w-40. A guy by the name of "SgtGeek" had a GTO with some ridiculous amount of HP and he switched from Amsoil 0w-30 to Shell Rotella and saw huge improvements in wear.

 

[SFCP]

I think that so many people are lead into thinking they that they need synthetic for peace of mind and added protection. Somple people figure that Corvettes come equiped with Mobil 1, so I must need it in my minivan, or my daily commuter. LOL What a farce these people are under. Then to boot, these people only keep their cars a few years, while others use conventional oil and change it every 4-5 months and get 200K + miles out of their engines. The oil market has everyone so brainwashed into thinking and feeling the need for synthetic is so great when in all actuallity, the only people who need it are those with high-end engines or live in arctic climates.
The brainwashing really needs to stop. I really find it pathetic in some ways how most people on this forum are so obesessed with syn while it has been proven millions of times that cars engines in this day and age will far outlast the body using el'cheepo dino.
(This is my opinion only, not fact)

 

[Pablo]

Same discussion new thread.

The main brainwashing I see is the dino only, 3k oil change. Pretty much a proven farce. The truth is that with synthetic oil you can go 7.5k-10K-15K+ mile OCI’s with no harm, no foul.

Nothing wrong with diesel oils, per se, - but where is the love for protecting your catalytic converter that used to be so important?

 

[Francis]

Now be either Syn or Mineral I like to change my oil every 5000kms. I like the look of clean oil and I like to look down my oil cap and see new clean coloured metal. SO if we take a engine run them both on 5000kms changes one on Syn and the other on Mineral I would like to see if there would be much difference.

But back to the start, would a 15w 40 Diesel stand up to racing in most V8 engines?

 

[MGBV8ROADSTER]

What is the issue re Min v Synth

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/arti...oup=Lubrication

Soot is forced into the oil in a diesel engine. Perhaps additional ZDDP is required because of increase in detergents?
http://www.apmaths.uwo.ca/~mmuser/Papers/TL05.pdf

 

[buster]

http://www.rotella.com/ubbthreads/showfl...;o=&fpart=1

 

[MGBV8ROADSTER]

Buster

Can you put finger on reason why improvement??

 

[Pablo]

Two words: Leaded fuel.

 

[Mystic]

Looks to me like the difference between mineral oil and synthetic oil is getting to be pretty minor, especially if it is true that a lot of synthetic oils today are Group III and not PAO.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Francis, I normaly change my oil in my 2003 Camry every 6 months or so. That has meant oil changes with less then 3000 miles some times and oil changes with 10,000 miles on them. My normaly though I am around 6500 miles though.I use dino for accelerated break-in then went right to synthetic. My valvetrain is so clean that it looks like the engine rolled off the assembly line just yesterday.I am currently at about 46,000 miles. Their are photo's on this site from some people that do 10,000 mile oil changes all the time since their car was new with super clean engines.

 

[buster]

A few of the major after market engine builders also recommend Shell Rotella because of the added ZDDP. I'll try to find them. It could be leaded fuel. The article I was trying to find had a good write up on it.

Amsoil's diesel oil would be a great substitute. It's the added ZDDP for SOME engines that is found in the diesel oils.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Synthetic is about deposit control for me more then anything else. It is also about the only way I can get the additive levels in the viscosity I want them in. I like to have 1000-1500ppm of zink, 150-600ppm of moly,1400-3000ppm of calcium and a little bit of boron. Other diesel oils it is hard if not impossable to get these type of additive levels in an off the shelf oil. This is one of the reason I use Rotella-T Synthetic 5W40 it is winter friendly,cheap and has plenty of zink and calcium in it. If I want to get those type of additive numbers I have to go with M1EP,Amsoil,Motul,Torco,VP Racing,Penrite etc.........

 

[427Z06]

Quote:

---

http://www.rotella.com/ubbthreads/showfl...;o=&fpart=1

---

That's ONE UOA of a very short OCI, with values near the noise level.

I wouldn't draw to many conclusions from this.

 

[Pablo]

Thanks 427. That was pretty much my point. I have no concept if it was leaded fuel or not, but one 1000 mile run in 6000 mile engine producing big power used for racing does not tell you a whole lot - especially when the other metals look relatively low and the oil looks fine. And it's posted on a Shell site???

 

[427Z06]

HDEOs traditionally have to deal with soot and sulfur compounds that may cause corrosion and are formulated accordingly. (Although, things are changing a bit with low sulfur fuel and low SAPS oils.) Some traditional HDEO additives used in HDEOs may increase spark plug fouling, something diesels don't have to worry about. You may also note the low amounts of detergents/dispersants in racing oils. One can conclude racing oils are formulated to concentrate on reducing wear as opposed to providing the capability for extended OCIs and quite probably to minimize sparkplug fouling.

However, HDEOs do have higher ZDDP levels, thus they do provide some margin against ZDDP depletion in old style flat-tappet pushrod pig-iron engine and they are well built for longer OCIs.

Synthetics advantages are mainly in handling low/high temperature extremes, and for longer OCIs if formulated accordingly. Synthetics do not completely make up for ZDDP depletion unless additional adds are used such as borate esters.

But if we're considering a stock flat-tappet pushrod pig-iron engine that's broken-in, with a mild cam, one would most likely have no problems running an API SM/GF-4 oil for 3K OCIs. The Sequence IIIG test clearly demonstrates this.

As a side note. One of the reasons diesels are usually clean inside is due to the fact that the oil is many times is diluted with diesel fuel...or kerosene if you will.

 

[Francis]

I have only ever heard so many good things about Shell Rotella and the bad thing is that we dont have it here in Australia anymore.

We also dont have any Leaded Fuels too. Even our racing fuel's are all Unleaded.

 

[Francis]

Our Bigest Diesel oil is Castrol RX Super 15w 40. Thats the bench mark of by what all of them are compared to. It would be like Rotella over there.

 

[427Z06]

I would imagine the Castrol RX Super 15w40 is about as good as the Shell Rotella.