The love/hate relationship with German cars

[IndyIan]

So?

They‘re nowhere near as effective as the Mercedes linkage.

When I say vertical, I mean straight up. 90 degrees.

No prop rod can accomplish that.

I guess that's important when this is at the back of the engine?

Or when "remove the engine" is the second step for many repairs? Taking that hood off all the time would be annoying!
Anyways I'm just grinding your gears, I'm glad you enjoy driving and maintaining your german cars, they are pretty unique and not ever going to be built again.
I'm not in the market for them, but when I see Audi put something like the above in a car, I always think that modern pushrod v8 is a better in almost every measure, except perhaps power at high revs... Mileage, power, weight, overall size, is all very close with much less complexity.

 

[edyvw]

I’ve never had a relationship with a drop dead gorgeous 6 foot blonde named Candy either but I know just admiring her from afar she would be high maintenance. I love the euro cars but like Candy, I’ll enjoy them from a distance but I’ll never ask her for a dance!

The assumption is the mother of all screwups.

 

[Haakon]

That was Audi's slogan, not BMWs. You must know your product if you're going to understand the ideology behind the design. Maybe you were searching for Freude am Fahren... or possibly Fahrvergnügen? Either way, when you buy a BMW you're buying "Sheer driving pleasure", not "Sheer maintaining pleasure". (this is all meant as humor)

It was actually NSU’s slogan, Audi just pinched it.

 

[edyvw]

I guess that's important when this is at the back of the engine? View attachment 131002
Or when "remove the engine" is the second step for many repairs? Taking that hood off all the time would be annoying!
Anyways I'm just grinding your gears, I'm glad you enjoy driving and maintaining your german cars, they are pretty unique and not ever going to be built again.
I'm not in the market for them, but when I see Audi put something like the above in a car, I always think that modern pushrod v8 is a better in almost every measure, except perhaps power at high revs... Mileage, power, weight, overall size, is all very close with much less complexity.

I know, it is much easier for example to locate the wastegate valve in such a manner that one has to remove the body from the frame: Toyota Tundra.

 

[D60]

I guess that's important when this is at the back of the engine? View attachment 131002
Or when "remove the engine" is the second step for many repairs? Taking that hood off all the time would be annoying!
Anyways I'm just grinding your gears, I'm glad you enjoy driving and maintaining your german cars, they are pretty unique and not ever going to be built again.
I'm not in the market for them, but when I see Audi put something like the above in a car, I always think that modern pushrod v8 is a better in almost every measure, except perhaps power at high revs... Mileage, power, weight, overall size, is all very close with much less complexity.

When you have a kindergartener draw pretty chain routing.....

 

[Astro14]

I guess that's important when this is at the back of the engine? View attachment 131002
Or when "remove the engine" is the second step for many repairs? Taking that hood off all the time would be annoying!
Anyways I'm just grinding your gears, I'm glad you enjoy driving and maintaining your german cars, they are pretty unique and not ever going to be built again.
I'm not in the market for them, but when I see Audi put something like the above in a car, I always think that modern pushrod v8 is a better in almost every measure, except perhaps power at high revs... Mileage, power, weight, overall size, is all very close with much less complexity.

Audi has made a lot of questionable design decisions.

Pulling the front clip to do the chain or the timing belts (no, their hoods don’t go vertical, and no, you can’t get at the chain with the front clip installed, so it doesn’t matter) is ridiculous, particularly when the chain or belts last about 100,000 miles.

The chain on my Mercedes lasts a lifetime.

Bashing all German cars, or Mercedes in particular, for a particular engine/chassis problem in an Audi, is like bashing Chevy for problems with the Ford eco boost water pump failures, or saying that domestics all suck because of what Ford did on that one engine.

The extrapolation is specious. The generalization false.

 

[wag123]

Audi has made a lot of questionable design decisions.

This is an understatement!

 

[2strokeNorthstar]

If you like hanging out at car dealerships' service departments I recommend german cars. Make sure you have a good tow package and that the dealer you chose has loaner cars.

They have the nicest service department. Tons of free snacks, drinks, Starbucks....

 

[IndyIan]

Audi has made a lot of questionable design decisions.

Pulling the front clip to do the chain or the timing belts (no, their hoods don’t go vertical, and no, you can’t get at the chain with the front clip installed, so it doesn’t matter) is ridiculous, particularly when the chain or belts last about 100,000 miles.

The chain on my Mercedes lasts a lifetime.

Bashing all German cars, or Mercedes in particular, for a particular engine/chassis problem in an Audi, is like bashing Chevy for problems with the Ford eco boost water pump failures, or saying that domestics all suck because of what Ford did on that one engine.

The extrapolation is specious. The generalization false.

Very true, I make the same arguments with ranking the manufacturers for initial quality, as you are only buying a specific model...
I guess we were broadly generalizing cars by the manufacturer's nation of origin, which is probably a waste of time, other than that only VW brings their "regular" cars to N.A. while the other 3 german manufacturers perpetuate that they are a "premium" car manufacturer only. So those 3 tend to be generally more expensive to run here, as all we see here are the more complex versions of what they sell.

 

[BISCUT]

Lease it. I’m serious. That’s my advice to people who admire either of my German cars, and they are admirable. The S600, despite being 17 years old, will flat out-run nearly every performance car on the road, while offering a smooth quiet ride for four people and handling that many sports cars cannot match. A V-12, with twin turbos, big brakes, active suspension, and wonderful luxury features. It has to be owned to be believed.

But ownership can be very expensive if something breaks. So…

Let the manufacturer absorb the financial risk of ownership. Lease it. Enjoy it. Know your costs up front.

Give it back.

You, Sir are 100% correct. You almost have too.... That is precisely where much of my frustration comes from. I'm old school keep em til 200k kinda guy but if I did it would certainly be a lease. Other viable option I've looked into is off late model off lease 36k ish and pay the bill for a comprehensive 100k warranty.

 

[4WD]

Being around dozens of 6 figure folks over time - my summary (of non DYI drivers)

1. skip the Audi
2. lease the BMW
3. own the MB the normal time folks in that money bracket do

 

[KCJeep]

I've always loved the German stuff. Don't buy one if you can't afford one, but that principle pretty much applies to about anything, doesn't it?

I tell people who ask me about them the same thing, you must keep up on maintenance and don't let them get too old. Pretty simple formula for success, and in my experience it works.

My two most painful ownership experiences were a Chevy and a Ford, in that order. I still own a Ford and would buy another.

 

[JeffKeryk]

So?

They‘re nowhere near as effective as the Mercedes linkage.

When I say vertical, I mean straight up. 90 degrees.

No prop rod can accomplish that.

I did a few things on my niece's 2015 Odyssey; the lower location puts the hood too close, IMO. The upper location is not vertical, but pretty close. I found it to be a simple, elegant solution. Better than most cars I have experience in.

 

[JeffKeryk]

You, Sir are 100% correct. You almost have too.... That is precisely where much of my frustration comes from. I'm old school keep em til 200k kinda guy but if I did it would certainly be a lease. Other viable option I've looked into is off late model off lease 36k ish and pay the bill for a comprehensive 100k warranty.

Well said. @Astro14 has a wealth of knowledge and experience he shares to the benefit of us all.

 

[wemay]

I have plenty VW and one Audi scar(s). It's in my blood and i still like them, but I won't deny they were the most unreliable cars I've owned.

 

[JHZR2]

the reality of parts costs, parts availability and service costs became too distasteful to continue those relationships. Each went back to other performance/luxury brands after having the German cars.

I'm in the market for my first luxury car ever. And I can assure you it won't be a a German car. I don't need to get burned to learn a lesson; I can see other people's scars and figure it out for myself.

I don’t know. I’ve owned quite a few and the parts costs aren’t high. There is lots of aftermarket support.

Currently we are working through my brothers FJ80 Land Cruiser, and he has the Lexus version. Talk about theft. You can price the same part online from Toyota or Lexus and there’s a huge difference. Even buying from Toyota, which we do, isn’t exactly cheap.

And when he has taken it to even a good Indy, let alone when we priced some work at Lexus, it’s $$$$ like any other.

 

[JHZR2]

I guess we were broadly generalizing cars by the manufacturer's nation of origin, which is probably a waste of time, other than that only VW brings their "regular" cars to N.A. while the other 3 german manufacturers perpetuate that they are a "premium" car manufacturer only. So those 3 tend to be generally more expensive to run here, as all we see here are the more complex versions of what they sell.

Truth.

 

[Escape08]

When we say over complicated does this hood hinge assembly come to mind?View attachment 130989

It could be a safety feature upon front impact collision?

 

[Escape08]

The luxury (German) marques know their primary market is the wealthy who own or lease for a few years then just walk away from a vehicle and buy the latest model. They can afford to. Plus they want/need the cache to keep up with the neighborhood.

I agree, not only in high-End German cars but to High-End Japanese, English, Swedish and American cars. Before the end of the warranty hand in the old key to the dealer and drives away with a new one.

 

[dnewton3]

On the topic of "over engineered", that's a matter of perspective IMO.

I'm looking at Lexus and Acura for luxury cars with a hint of performance. I could certainly get quicker, better handling cars from Audi or BMW, but that comes as a cost. The German cars perhaps handle a tad better at the 9/10 or 10/10 level of driving, and the extremely complicated suspension systems and brakes and steering linkages make for the "best" experience at 10/10 driving. But short of that, driving at normal speeds, the Acura and Lexus brands do everything just as well, for less money, with less complication, and WAY more reliability.

It's not that the German cars are bad; that's simply untrue. Most of them are really outstanding performers and very interesting. It's just a matter of how much tolerance one has for fiscal pain after a few years. These high performing German cars get very expensive past year 3.

As has been mentioned, one can lease if you choose to. But even during a lease, you still have more expensive service products (brakes, filters, etc). And, heaven forbid you have an accident during your lease; you will almost certainly be waiting longer for your car to be repaired due to the infamous backlog of German parts supply chain. I know this second-hand due to issues my various friends have had waiting on parts due to accidents. Waiting literally weeks and weeks for simple items at times ... and that was PRE-COVID. So even if you lease a German car, you're not immune to the issues facing those who own. Leasing keeps you inside a warranty period and so WARRANTY parts are not a cost consideration. But SERVICE parts are always a consideration, and ACCIDENT REPAIR parts are always a consideration because cost and timing are not uniquely separated by a lease.