The gene pool is a bit cleaner today

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I can see how easily a panicking person could cause themselves severe injury trying to escape from a situation that most of us would say "calm down, and re-assess yourself".

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There's always the possibility of being painted into a lethal corner and not being able to reason your way out. That would be a rough one. Especially if it was a something you could see coming from a long way off (timewise).

If never been incarcerated ..or even handcuffed. I don't know how I would react at this age. Lots of anxieties that weren't issues when I was younger are present now ..even though they may be irrational. I do get weirded out about confined spaces ..when I didn't think about them as a young man. I can surely handle "crawl spaces" ...but you won't find me doing any cavern exploring where the roof and the floor happen to fit you for a bit..nor buying a ticket on a submarine. I was someone who saw panic as a weakness (in a crowd situation, for example) but think that I may stampede with the herd at this point.
 
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The only thing certain is that everyone evenly remotely involved in the incident will be sued.

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Well, the officials involved decided to exercise their authority to take her into their custody, realizing she was in a highly agitated emotional state (of course they did, that's why they detained her), and then they stuck her in a cell with no supervision at all. When someone has someone or something in their custody, they're responsible for that person or thing. If the responsible custodians fail to step up and accept their responsibility voluntarily, well, that's precisely why we have courts of law in the first place.
 
The latest report on TV tells us the police essentially tackled her from the start. The witnesses couldn't understand why she wasn't first warned verbally to calm down. Preliminary autopsy shows many bruises on her body indicating a struggle. They did not yet determine asphyxiation.
 
I believe this thread and its tone to be despicable. You call this deceased lady a victory for your gene pool?

Mrs. Gotbaum was a 45 year old lady with a husband and 3 children under the age of 10. She held an MBA degree. She started drinking heavily 3 years ago and was on her way to an alcohol treatment program in Tucson when police stopped her. When she landed in Phoenix she called her husband and said,"I want to do this for us. I want to do this for our kids. I'm committed to this. I'm so happy...." The final words from a 5'7" woman weighing 105 lbs. seeking help for herself in order to preserve her family.

Col. Polk, I did expect better from you.

Peace,

Joat
 
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Col. Polk, I did expect better from you.

Peace,

Joat

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Ed doesn't need my defense, but you have so badly missed the target with that one that I need to speak up.

Re-read Ed's post a few posts above yours. He doesn't leave any doubt where he believes the responsibility for the woman's death lies.

One of his earlier posts was an example of dark humor, as he explained later.

Ed isn't one of the people in this thread that has implied that the woman deserved to die because she didn't follow social norms. If you want to single someone out, please pick one of them.

I think we are on the same page here.
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There have been some despicable posts in this thread, but they weren't Ed's.
 
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Col. Polk, I did expect better from you.

Peace,

Joat

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Ed doesn't need my defense, but you have so badly missed the target with that one that I need to speak up.

Re-read Ed's post a few posts above yours. He doesn't leave any doubt where he believes the responsibility for the woman's death lies.

One of his earlier posts was an example of dark humor, as he explained later.

Ed isn't one of the people in this thread that has implied that the woman deserved to die because she didn't follow social norms. If you want to single someone out, please pick one of them.

I think we are on the same page here.
cheers.gif
There have been some despicable posts in this thread, but they weren't Ed's.

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My apology to Col. Polk as he was/is not the "real" offender in this thread. Col. Polk is the one that I thought would stop then wayward path of this distasteful thread.

I was referring to Col. Polk's comments:

"Easy Mark. As noted above, you have to keep things in context. My work exposes me to destruction, disaster, and yes, death on an almost every day basis. Dark humor is one very effective way to simply keep from losing one's mind in the face of all of it. If you think that we're suggesting this is funny in a light "ha, ha" sort of way, you're completely mistaken."

and this:

"Mark:

Well fine, we won't begrudge you your taste, but for those of us who DO have to deal with death and disaster every day, such humor is part of the culture. If you find it in poor taste, well, be extra thankful you have the luxury of living and working where you don't have to confront such ugly things on a daily basis. And really, please don't bother viewing content that involves such stuff, and then condemning others for their view, because you're really not going to convince a cop or EMT who sees real death every day that letting off a little steam with dark humor is in "poor taste"."

I still maintain that this is not "gallows humor" when we talk of cleaning the gene pool.

I believe that Col. Polk bringing the true nature of a custodial responsibility to light is laudable.

Let me be clear, Col. Polk has my respect, and I expect far better from him that most on this site.

Joat
 
Edited to remove misinterpreted information.


I hate the fact that she died in police custody. I hate it for her family. BUT, as a grown woman, she is responsible for her actions, as are the police for theirs. People die in jail all the time for things that jail officers have no way of knowing about. Until the end results of the autopsy, WE have no way of knowing. Maybe she stroked out from the stress. Maybe her heart exploded from the stress, who knows.
 
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Still, the police should have kept her in their sight while in their custody.

How do you know that she was grossly intoxicated? I can't find that in any of the stories.
 
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A 45 year old woman,who was grossly intoxicated while on her way to a treatment facility, was trying to board an aircraft at that. Sure, let her on the plane and let her disrupt the whole flight.

What would you have had the police do? Ignore the fact that she was drunk and let her go about her business? Ever try to arrest a drunk person? Male or female? Some of them fight like bears and alcohol gives them more courage than they would have sober.

I hate the fact that she died in police custody. I hate it for her family. BUT, as a grown woman, she is responsible for her actions, as are the police for theirs. People die in jail all the time for things that jail officers have no way of knowing about. Until the end results of the autopsy, WE have no way of knowing. Maybe she stroked out from the stress. Maybe her heart exploded from the stress, who knows.

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My objection to this thread is the fact that this woman's death is characterized as a "cleaning of the gene pool".

I have no opinion on how the police handled this situation and I am certainly not in a position to judge their actions. I do believe it is accepted and expected practice to provide a certain level of basic care when a person is in custody.

Good luck swimming in your "cleansed" pool,

Joat
 
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When someone has someone or something in their custody, they're responsible for that person or thing.

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I know..I know..everyone is responsible for "her" except "her".

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No, not really. The "flip side" of this is the all-too-common crime we call "resisting an officer" here in Florida (it goes by different by similar names in other places; used to be called "resisting arrest" but it has been broadened in most places). The idea is that a citizen is supposed to submit peacfully when a law enforcement officer decides to take them into custody. Once a citizen has submitted to that authority, the officer and agency who took custody have complete responsibility for the well-being of their charges. No excuses. Were they short-handed? Fine, they should have cuffed her to a chair where the shift supervisor could keep an eye on her. If she was as out of control as some seem to be suggesting, she should have been immediately transported to a mental health facility.

She IS (er...was) responsible for her behavior, and the criminal justice system could and would have dealt with that in time. But she became their responsibility when they "took her in". For everyone's sake, I hope the agency involved is well insured...

Joat:

I see where you're coming from. Please understand that it certainly never was my intent to offend anyone. I'm neither an EMT nor a cop, but I do litigate criminal cases, a job which, all TV nonsense aside, presents a non-stop flow of tragedy and loss. On the military side, I've also been involved with several aircraft mishap investigations. When you've trudged through an idyllic country meadow that's liberally strewn with sizzled meaty chunks of two respected aviators (one of whom you knew), it doesn't take long to understand the roots of defensive dark humor. All this said, I really do feel bad for her family, especially her kids. Nothing anyone in this existence can do will make things right for them.
 
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