Test for Dexron vs. ATF +3 ?

Status
Not open for further replies.
doitmyself

doitmyself

Joined
Jun 3, 2002
Messages
10,335
Location
MI
Can a test lab such such as Blackstone determine if a transmission fluid is Dexron vs. ATF +3?

Had fluid change, transmission now shudders, receipt shows Dexron, owners manual shows +3. Service garage says receipt is a misprint, they NEVER would install wrong fluid!

Thank you all.
 
Dollars to donuts says they used either Dexron or some brand of "Universal ATF". Go back to the shop and have them show you any container they have that actually says ATF+3 on it.
Betcha they can't find one.
ED
 
Well, I did go to the dealer today. I asked what kind of fluid to add to my transmission based on the service receipt that said "Dexron". The counter boy said to use Dexron. That's when I challenged this idiot about my owners manual recommendation of ATF+3. He brought out the service manager who said it was a billing/typo error and that they never install the incorrect fluid.

He then pulled a GREEN Quaker State bottle of ATF+3 off his shop shelf and said this is what we used.

What's funny, is that when I had them do the First tranny change, they poured something out of a BLACK bottle. My wife did this second change and doesn't remember the bottle color.

So....I can't prove anything and the dealer denies using the wrong fluid, in spite of the receipt indicating Dexron.

Finished!
 
Yes you had two posts on the exact same question running at the same time. The oil analysis section is used for analysis reports, so your topic was moved here. I deleted the 2'nd post on this topic.
 
Take it back to the shop now and demand that they use ATF+3. Even if your dipstick says Dex III do not do it!!!!!! ATF+3 is cheap and available every where. You can get ATF+3 and almost all parts stores and even Walmart sells it!!
 
I'll betcha that "black" bottle was one of the several "highly friction modifier" supplememnts that are advertised as bringing common Dexron III up to various proprietary fluid standards. BTW, doesn't Chrysler now recommend ATF+4 for most (all?) prior year trannies calling for ATF+2 and ATF+3? Anyone?
 
I agree with Ray H. They may have added a highly friction modified supplement. Some of the highly friction modified supplements are not very good and will not last long.

If they did not write on your receipt that they used ATF+3, ATF+4 or that they added one of those HFM supplements to a Dexron III fluid then they should do another transmission fluid change (while you watch)! Don't let them make any changes to your receipt. If they don't re-due the transmission service correctly then make a complaint to the Chrysler zone office and if that doesn't work then make a complaint to the "Better Business Bureau."

I believe that Chrysler strongly suggests that additives not be used and that you use the correct fluid only. I read somewhere that ATF+4 has replaced ATF+3 in nealy all Chrysler applications however ATF+3 is still fine for an older Chrysler transmission.

Transmission shudder will damage your transmission. You must fix this problem or you may be replacing that transmission in the future.

[ January 03, 2004, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: Sin City ]
 
I agree with what Sin City said. Go back with your receipt and demand they do it again and watch them using ATF+4. If they refuse to do it then tell them you have no choice but to take it up with Chrysler or the BBB because your tranny is shuddering. It should not shudder if the correct fluid is used and they did the job right. Your receipt does not say they used ATF+3 or +4. That's all the proof you need along with the shuddering. As a matter of fact, what you really should do is flush the entire tranny since now it is probably mixed with Dexron and ATF+. Also, your tranny was fine but now it shudders after they serviced your tranny. So they should take a look at it anyway. Who knows, maybe they didn't put on the filter correctly.

[ January 03, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: jeepzj ]
 
Until someone chimes in with the exact info, I think ATF+4 is not backwards compatible with pre-1999 model transmissions.

When any dispute escalates (say, through a legal route), the bottom line is whatever proof you can provide. You have a receipt that clearly shows Dexron was used, regardless of what was communicated. The receipt is a contract. You also have a paper trail that shows ATF+3 is specified for the transmission. Any reasonable person would say you have a right to have the fluid flushed from the transmission and replaced with ATF+3. After all, the people who run the service garage should be experts and qualified to properly perform transmission work within specification, or they shouldn't be servicing cars for the public.

This will teach the shop to either use the proper fluid, not cut corners, or properly fill out the paperwork for the customer instead of running a haphazard operation.

I think I remember somebody posting once that ATF+3 can be distinguished from Dexron by color.
 
ATF+4 is not only backwards compatable it is totally acceptable to mix with ATF+3. The only exception was certain model minivans.

As far as the original post, If the tranny didn't develop a shudder it would probably be ok to drop the issue, but if it didn't shudder before and it does now I think the shop should own up to the notion that maybe the guy who did the work grabbed the wrong bottles and do or pay for a tranny flush.
Ed
 
this was a DEALER???
a few notes. atf +4 is not only backwards compatible, not only recommended, but is what ALL chrysler vehicles are to use-period. chrysler outlined this in a TSB in 2001 or 2000. there is ONE exception-atf +3 is to be USED IN ALL MINIVANS 1999 AND PRIOR!!! do not ask why, i wrote tech service at chrysler. blew me off at first, then stated it would be ok to use atf +4 in 1999 voyager as it is broken in. still did not answer my questions. anyway, it now gets changed twice a year-once siphon out about 4-5 qts from dipstick and then do exchange with filter change. i do this every 6 month oil change. i will still use atf +3 as it is about 1/4 price of atf +4. overkill....maybe, but do some searching on the good ol A604,41TE transmissions used on these and there is no such thing as overkill. btw, three local dodge/chrysler dealers around me do not even carry 7176 atf+3 anymore. they use atf +4 in everything.
if a DEALER did this, pass the service manager and call corporate and demand a flush out, they'll do it, just keep yellin and ask for the next person up in command. DC transmissions are a sore point and your receipt is proof of a potentially destroyed tranny. anyway-GET THAT STUFF OUT OF YOUR TRANSMISSION.
 
quote:
Can a test lab such such as Blackstone determine if a transmission fluid is Dexron vs. ATF +3?

Had fluid change, transmission now shudders, receipt shows Dexron, owners manual shows +3. Service garage says receipt is a misprint, they NEVER would install wrong fluid!
Click to expand...
My post was deleted but here is what I think I said:

The answer is no, not with the $35 test. One could use the LubeGuard black bottle supplement to upagrade the Dexron III to C+, but the in this case, the proof is upon the shoulders of the dealer. I would have him replace the fluid while you watched.
 
Some corrections. This was a general service garage (as in my first post) and not a dealer (as mistated in my second post).

The black bottles (4 to 5)used on the first change were quart bottles, probably not just an additive.

Finally, there was about a one month period after this second change that the shudder started to appear. It started VERY mild/occasional, now it is becoming slightly more noticeable.

This is a 99 Chrysler minivan (sigh, my previous one went 200 thousand - NO major problems).

What bothers me is the receipt (Dexron). But, at 105,000 it could also be the tranny going.

I just wish I had proof in order to challenge the service garage. He denies the receipt saying Dexron.

As you can see I am in between solutions. I could have the system flushed (about $90 here) on top of the $60 already spent on filter/fluid change. Or, I could add the Duragard supplement (black bottle), but this could make problem worse if ATF+3 is indeed in there(says so on bottle).

Thanks for allowing my rant! And thanks for the input. Really hoped the analysis would have proved something.
 
If you can get it done for $40 or $50 bucks, then it may be worth it.

They must have one darn good IR machine if they can differentiate between Dexron III and C+. Either that, or they are using some other analysis method.

Let's assume ATF+3 was in there before and now there is Dexron III. Some background ATF+3 may show up in the fluid sample and skew the readings to make it look like ATF+3.

The basic difference between Dexron III and ATF+3 are the organic, non-metallic friction modifiers. I would be interested in knowing how they are going to differentiate with an IR machine.


By all means, post the results.
 
FYI - I talked with Ryan at Blackstone. They said it is relatively easy to determine Dexron vs. ATF+ 3 by analysis. $20 - was'nt clear, but he said that was part of a "standard" test (or was it $20 on top of standard test). Either way, now I can get the proof I need.

Thanks all.
 
HERE'S THE LAB FOLLOW UP!

From Blackstone Labs:

"This appears to be diluted ATF+3 fluid.........We cannot say for sure that Dextron ATF was added to this fill, because Dextron does not contain any specific element markers that would let us know it was in this oil fill."....."This leads us to believe that this oil is not straight ATF+3....".


In general, the additive chemical levels that I.D. ATF+3 (calcium, magnesium,phosphorus,zinc, and barium) are all approximately 50% of the "universal averages that show the typical additive package for ATF+3".

So, I have service receipts that say Dexron was used for the filter/fluid change. And, I have a lab test that says that the fluid in the trans. is diluted ATF+3.

Monday I'm off to the garage to argue for reimbursement for a total fluid exchange. On my first attempt (before lab results) they said they never use wrong fluid, the receipt is a mis-print.

ANY SUGGESTIONS FOR THIS BATTLE?

Should I first get a trans. shop to confirm, in writing, the trans. shudder?

Thanks all. The garage should be happy I didn't get the trans rebuilt and charge them for that!
 
If the repair shop refuse to do a transmission flush (while you watch) as well as refund you the money for the transmission fluid analysis then you will have to go to the Better Business Bureau. Some states also have an Office of Consumer Affairs that you can complain to.

Make sure that you make copies of your receipt before you go back to the shop just in case that they change your receipt after you show it to them.
 
IF this were my van and they still refused to do the repair work I would then take the van to a Chrysler dealer and have them flush the transmission and continue to pursue the issue with the repair shop through the BBB, Office of Consumer Affairs and then finally through small claims court. I think at some point you would get a refund for the work.

If you continue to drive the van while having transmission shudder you will ruin the transmission at some point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

T
Mix ATF conventional and synthetic?
Replies
14
Views
652
xmanjeff
C
Is Dexron2/3 interchangeable with mb236.14?
Replies
3
Views
1K
loneryder
B
Valvoline Extended Protection ATF for Dexron LV HP
Replies
2
Views
932
TheBig2003
J
Best Trans Fluid for GM's Hydra-Matic 6T50?
2
Replies
21
Views
2K
RF Overlord
P
2013 Mazda CX-9
Replies
7
Views
782
podan
Back
Top Bottom