Enjoy it while it lasts. Capitalism can be cruel.
Tesla Milestone: 5 Millionth Car Manufactured
- Thread starter DwightFrye
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I understand this. I live and worked in an extremely brutal industry, semiconductors. Feast or famine.
I cant speak for Musk. I can speak for BMW
BMW South Carolina pays pretty darn well, they offer benefits unattainable in most sectors of our economy also. Seems like a Union vote every year and every year it gets turned down.
Let's acknowledge the reason for these pay scales and benefits are to keep the workers happy without a union.
So in this respect Unions are good for workers and fantastic to huge non union companies. But what happens, just like a corrupt anything including governments. Is the heads of these unions further restrict and tie down company activities. Meaning all of a sudden, fair pay and benefits are not enough, they get on a power trip to the workers so those Union officials can be re-elected during the next union cycle. THIS IS WHAT KILLS companies.
It's not the pay, worker benefits ect. It's corrupt union officials who could care less about the workers or the company, but care about getting re-elected.
The non union auto manufacturers know this. Make sure to treat the workers well and that is a benefit of a Union threat. But it ends there, because if a union moves in to a company you quickly start to lose control and flexibility.
Just look at the latest battle taking place with the autoworkers. Union want to control part time workers, union wants to control plant closings, union wants to control layoffs. So forget worker pay and benefits, it's about companies losing control. Yes and this case outrageous money grab to workers that do not deserve it. Trust me, they are NOT going to get it, no way near 40% pay increase over 4 years. So prepare for a long strike.
This is what makes me sick when I hear those touting how great Tesla is at profit margins ect. What a crock. It's because Tesla is not tied down with Unions. Its not the pay as much as it is, unions will control the staff at Tesla is they ever got voted in. Same goes for BMW ect ect ... Gone will be the flexabilty that makes a company successful and stay competitive , they will get the life sucked out of them.
Capitalism prevails. It is humans that take time to adapt to new paradigms. Sometimes that shift is severe. It may require training and or a change into a totally new career path.
Just for discussion's sake, let's say GM, Ford and Stellantis accede to the UAW's demands. What happens next ? Do they increase the prices of their vehicles or give up some of their already slim profit margins ?
Tesla workers are paid well and seem to be happy. They are free to leave if they don't like their wages, benefits and working conditions. And they would be replaced right away by someone happy to have the job.
Back to my original point, while EV's making up at least 50% of new car sales is still several years in the future, how will the big three be able to capture their share of that market and do so profitably ? They are having a hard enough time staying viable just selling ICE vehicles. Where I live, gas has gone up another $0.20 this week. 91 octane which I use in both of my vehicles is now $6.59. With each passing year EV's are becoming more attractive to those who need a vehicle and the various drawbacks that we have discussed here are not a problem for them.
I remain highly skeptical that the Big 3 will be competitive by 2025, 2028 or maybe even 2030. They just won't have the tens of billions of dollars to invest in R&D, new production lines and ramping up in that emerging category. Tesla produced a million EV's in just six months and their financials look rock solid. And they aren't even seeing the billions of dollars starting to flow in from their other products yet.
By the way I have never belonged to a union. Prior to retirement I was making a six figure salary. Typical raises were 3%. But I was living in one of the most expensive cities in the US and the annual inflation rate there was more like 6%. And that was prior to the inflation since 2020. You know what we were told ? Be happy you have a job.
When I read about people demanding 40% increases and 32 hour work weeks I have zero solidarity. Especially considering the kind of vehicles the UAW workers have been producing for the last 40 years.
Tesla workers are paid well and seem to be happy. They are free to leave if they don't like their wages, benefits and working conditions. And they would be replaced right away by someone happy to have the job.
Back to my original point, while EV's making up at least 50% of new car sales is still several years in the future, how will the big three be able to capture their share of that market and do so profitably ? They are having a hard enough time staying viable just selling ICE vehicles. Where I live, gas has gone up another $0.20 this week. 91 octane which I use in both of my vehicles is now $6.59. With each passing year EV's are becoming more attractive to those who need a vehicle and the various drawbacks that we have discussed here are not a problem for them.
I remain highly skeptical that the Big 3 will be competitive by 2025, 2028 or maybe even 2030. They just won't have the tens of billions of dollars to invest in R&D, new production lines and ramping up in that emerging category. Tesla produced a million EV's in just six months and their financials look rock solid. And they aren't even seeing the billions of dollars starting to flow in from their other products yet.
By the way I have never belonged to a union. Prior to retirement I was making a six figure salary. Typical raises were 3%. But I was living in one of the most expensive cities in the US and the annual inflation rate there was more like 6%. And that was prior to the inflation since 2020. You know what we were told ? Be happy you have a job.
When I read about people demanding 40% increases and 32 hour work weeks I have zero solidarity. Especially considering the kind of vehicles the UAW workers have been producing for the last 40 years.
and hence the reason for all your trashing of the legacy makers.
They have to deal with unions. The way I read your post is, like you portray the latest union demands as increasing prices, "give up already slim profit margins" "highly skeptical they can remain competitive"
Here is a wake up call (just discussing) and what do you think GM, Ford, Stellantis has had to deal with for decades now? Unions.
Like hello *LOL* this is why you are complaining about the legacy makers. Unions eat companies alive and guess what, if the big 3 fail, then the next union shop will be Tesla and the life cycle will start all over again.
However this next statement you made is complexly false =
GM and Fords worst ever year in profit for the last 10 years was still better then Tesla's best year.
BTW- of which Tesla only made money in 2021 and 2022 and lost money every year they were in business before that, furthermore their exposure in China is massive and would almost take down the company at the present time if we get in a conflict.
Your assumption that they will not be viable is your own speculation that Tesla EVs will overtake ICE vehicles. The legacy has both products, ICE and EV, Tesla and others only have one, EVs
You say Tesla is a technology company, true and they have other operations, true but at the current time their profits on those operations are pathetic and contribute almost nothing to the bottom line. Furthermore they have not been able to stay competitive on those operations.
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All good points, here's the rub the way I see it. Elon's non-union workers catch wind of what line workers end up with, they'll want more. Maybe not union scale but more. I think Elon might pay top brass well, but I have a feeling the blue collar hard working grunts not as well as others in the industry. I also have a feeling he might just be a pr*.* to work for. Bottom line, how this plays out will be interesting, even for Elon's workers. FTR I'm not a big fan of unions.................
Every product has a product life cycle. The end of that life cycle is often painful.
The labor component in vehicle manufacturing is about 15%. Materials are by far the highest component at well over 50%.
By definition, management is responsible for short and long term planning to ensure ongoing corporation viability.
By definition, management is responsible for short and long term planning to ensure ongoing corporation viability.
5 million, thats a nice fluffy number to toss about. Tesla has alot of catching up to do.
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-brand/
https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2023-us-vehicle-sales-figures-by-brand/
| Brand | Q2 2023 | Q2 2022 |
|---|---|---|
| Acura | 40,177 | 24,624 |
| Alfa Romeo | 2,310 | 3,084 |
| Audi | 55,608 | 49,642 |
| BMW | 87,942 | 78,903 |
| Buick | 42,753 | 28,878 |
| Cadillac | 38,877 | 33,684 |
| Chevrolet | 452,678 | 383,816 |
| Chrysler | 49,143 | 36,935 |
| Dodge | 59,746 | 44,270 |
| Fiat | 142 | 252 |
| Ford | 507,751 | 456,813 |
| Genesis | 17,210 | 13,945 |
| GMC | 156,019 | 132,057 |
| Honda | 306,848 | 215,165 |
| Hyundai | 205,475 | 184,191 |
| Infiniti | 16,529 | 10,556 |
| Jaguar | 1,785 | 1,950 |
| Jeep | 181,288 | 186,662 |
| Karma | 32 | 0 |
| Kia | 210,197 | 172,847 |
| Land Rover | 13,686 | 10,471 |
| Lexus | 81,159 | 66,723 |
| Lincoln | 20,124 | 23,745 |
| Lucid | 601 | 500 |
| Mazda | 95,399 | 60,535 |
| Mercedes-Benz | 95,670 | 98,809 |
| Mini | 7,585 | 5,129 |
| Mitsubishi | 24,603 | 21,871 |
| Nissan | 227,824 | 172,620 |
| Polestar | 0 | 2,300 |
| Porsche | 18,894 | 19,489 |
| Ram | 142,014 | 137,873 |
| Rivian | 12,601 | 700 |
| Subaru | 160,713 | 131,449 |
| Tesla | 172,999 | 118,700 |
| Toyota | 476,889 | 416,834 |
| Volkswagen | 76,933 | 77,289 |
| Volvo | 33,267 | 27,828 |
What is the #1 selling car in the world?
Yeah, but the point being is Tesla employees as well as all other non-union automobile plants can be unionized anytime they want but they vote no.All good points, here's the rub the way I see it. Elon's non-union workers catch wind of what line workers end up with, they'll want more. Maybe not union scale but more. I think Elon might pay top brass well, but I have a feeling the blue collar hard working grunts not as well as others in the industry. I also have a feeling he might just be a pr*.* to work for. Bottom line, how this plays out will be interesting, even for Elon's workers. FTR I'm not a big fan of unions.................
This just points out the fact that no matter what the media says workers are happy at these non-unionized plants, or else they would be unionized by a simple vote.
It’s really that simple, yes, vote means to unionize no vote means to not unionize.
Unions have spent tens of millions of dollars trying to convert these workers to vote yes and many times fall flat on their face such as year after year at the BMW plant in South Carolina which I have intimate knowledge. I don’t have knowledge of Tesla but it’s really as simple as that. If the workers wanted they could be unionized.
This is an interesting media story, but it doesn’t tell the story of how the work is at these plants are happy.
I am posting this cause sometimes I get sick of hearing how profitable Tesla is yet look at what the legacy companies have to deal with. Then to add insult to injury the same people are pro union and get as much money as you can out of the company. Yet they never talk that way about Tesla employees should be doing the same.
Ps. If this story is correct, what tesla spends per employee does seem very low.
I do agree with you, you would think this certainly would have to put some pressure on Tesla but who knows those employees have the chance all the time.
https://www.businessinsider.com/uaw...ord-stellantis-labor-hourly-wages-2023-9?op=1
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All your points are valid. But they do follow the unions closely and can ask for more $$ slow down and break balls if they aren't happy. Unhappy workers can make a real nightmare for any employee, and if they decide to unionize they can pursue it. My point is no one in the automotive industry is not following what's going on with the UAW and the Big Three.
agree completely and when it gets so out of hand, that’s when more and more plans move to Mexico
And China, India, Vietnam, you name it. Where ever people work cheap.
Probably Toyota Corolla family (many vehicles of different trims and names but same architecture and platform).
I think the big 3 would survive and either "buy" or "fund" a startup, as a holding company they would gradually buy from these startups to sell as their own, or make profit off their stock holding. If AMD can become fabless and beat Intel, it is possible for the big 3 to get into EV using the EV's advantage (selling stocks as tech stocks, non union workers, nimble startup mentality, easier capital assess).
I'm more worried about UAW than the big 3. If they cannot negotiate a stock based compensation (so members' interest align with the employers) for their members into the future they are going to go away very very quickly.
Since the title of this thread is about Tesla producing their 5 millionth car, here are some other figures.
From 2022. Total sales.
Toyota. 10.48 million.
VW Group. 8.26 million.
Hyundai Motor Group. 6.85 million.
Renault Nissan Mitsubishi Group was fourth.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/275520/ranking-of-car-manufacturers-based-on-global-sales/
From 2022. Total sales.
Toyota. 10.48 million.
VW Group. 8.26 million.
Hyundai Motor Group. 6.85 million.
Renault Nissan Mitsubishi Group was fourth.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/275520/ranking-of-car-manufacturers-based-on-global-sales/