Taking Kharg Island

[Vercingetorix]

Vizzini said it best.
'Never get involved in a land war in Asia'—but only slightly less well-known is this: 'Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!'"

 

[IndyIan]

Democracies died? You think the Middle East was made up of Democracies prior to the discovery of oil? And that cronyism came later?

LOL…

Seriously?

You really need to read more!

Iran was basically from 1912 to 1925, then it was a getting closer to a democracy again until in 1952, the elected prime minister decided to nationalize their oil production. So the UK/US took him down and decided to make sure the corrupt religious leader in their payroll would run Iran for their oil companies benefit, making sure it wasn't a democracy, because then the people might want to benefit from the oil underneath their feet?
The things got so corrupted and bad, that in 1979, a viable option to get rid of the US/UK dictator was going with an Islamic republic...

So perhaps in hindsight, the US/UK/western democracies should've told their rich oil companies to compromise some profits and try to get a reasonable democracy going instead of backing a corrupt dictator, allowing the conditions to get bad enough that many of the population thought trying a religious dictatorship, not backed by foreign interests, seemed like a better option?

 

[Astro14]

Iran was basically from 1912 to 1925, then it was a getting closer to a democracy again until in 1952, the elected prime minister decided to nationalize their oil production. So the UK/US took him down and decided to make sure the corrupt religious leader in their payroll would run Iran for their oil companies benefit, making sure it wasn't a democracy, because then the people might want to benefit from the oil underneath their feet?
The things got so corrupted and bad, that in 1979, a viable option to get rid of the US/UK dictator was going with an Islamic republic...

So perhaps in hindsight, the US/UK/western democracies should've told their rich oil companies to compromise some profits and try to get a reasonable democracy going instead of backing a corrupt dictator, allowing the conditions to get bad enough that many of the population thought trying a religious dictatorship, not backed by foreign interests, seemed like a better option?

For a guy who claimed to not know much about Middle East History, now you’re going to lecture us?

What a pile of retrospective projection and careful selection of data, while ignoring the larger picture.

Ten years of Democracy after 6 years of Revolution, imposed with the help of the Russian Army.

It wasn’t the idyllic Western Democracy that you’re projecting, it was exclusive, and denied the right to vote to “women, foreigners, men under 25, "persons notorious for mischievous opinions," those with a criminal record, active military personnel, etc.

Members of the parliament were required to be fully literate in Persian, "Iranian subjects of Iranian extraction," "locally known," "not be in government employment," between the ages of 30 and 70, and "have some insight into affairs of State.”

It collapsed under massive corruption and a resultant coup d’état (maybe they should have allowed soldiers the right to vote?). It was a dictatorship after the coup d’état, and remained so, even though the country was Western in style, and various freedoms for the populace.

Let’s not forget that you said, “Middle East” not “Iran”. Related but not the same.

Finally, and this is really a significant point given your post above - the Anglo Persian Oil company that was formed in 1909 was solely British, not American, and as a part of the Commonwealth, before Dominion was granted, Canada was part of that enterprise.

In 1954, APOC became British Petroleum.

I love history but revisionist history is repugnant.

So is moral preening.

 

[SC Maintenance]

I assume we could likely take it.

Why would we want it??

 

[KevinDM]

I assume we could likely take it.

Why would we want it??

I have wondered the same thing. More profits for the oil companies when oil prices go even higher? I have no skin in the game except my wallet getting lighter. Send the boys in and let’s see where the chips fall.

 

[y_p_w]

20 + years ago, I definitely would have been a part of this mission.

The Army's 82nd Airborne Division, other than being the military's main conventional QRF, (Quick Reaction Force), is charged with the seizure of enemy airfields WITHOUT the total destruction of said airfield, to allow follow up forces to land from the air. This idea, and objective, omits indiscriminate bombing, and in most cases, bombing in general, as the mission is to take and hold an area, and to allow its use by friendlies. By in large, it is a direct action, engagement, under the cover of night.

Another argument on this forum, about A10s being obsolete.......they are perfect for CAS in these situations, over course as @Astro14 stated, with air dominance from fighter jets.

Although this island is not an airfield, it is well within the divisions mission statement.

Would it be easy, no. Would it cost lives, yes. It would be a massive joint effort, of all branches, all in support of the paratroopers.

To be honest, on behalf of those in line and being one of them in the past.......I hope they do it. As a paratrooper, there is no higher honor than to have a combat jump. No member I know of in service has a "mustard stain". Last official combat jump was in Panama in 1989. Some of the readers here will not understand this concept. It would be quite a thing really.

If they go.........godspeed.........and unleash hell.

US Army says the last time was 2003.

https://www.army.mil/article/265117...he_20th_anniversary_of_their_last_combat_jump

 

[johnmyster]

We're securing an island of factories where about 20,000 people live. We're basically going to show up and tell a bunch of mall cops to stand down.

 

[Pew]

I assume we could likely take it.

Why would we want it??

Indeed! The island itself can be taken. The question is why, because that's an act of war.

 

[Astro14]

Indeed! The island itself can be taken. The question is why, because that's an act of war.

I would think the Air Strikes that have been executed already constitute war.

Just as targeting the US Marines and French Army, killing 307 in total, while they were in a different country, might be interpreted as war.

I don’t see how taking the island is much different.

 

[cheetah50]

I would imagine we could take it but at a pretty high cost. According to recent reports we've only managed to destroy ~ 1/3 of their ballistic missile program , leaving ample for attacking neighboring oil , water, and power infrastructure of their gulf coast neighbors. According to some reports missile interceptors are also running low. In Essence ....could we take it ? Absolutely. Do we want to ? I would imagine not, the issue with continual escalation in a conflict like this is eventually you run out of things to escalate to (save one which I will not mention) and at that point its just slogging it out on the ground for God knows how long.

 

[IndyIan]

For a guy who claimed to not know much about Middle East History, now you’re going to lecture us?

What a pile of retrospective projection and careful selection of data, while ignoring the larger picture.

Ten years of Democracy after 6 years of Revolution, imposed with the help of the Russian Army.

It wasn’t the idyllic Western Democracy that you’re projecting, it was exclusive, and denied the right to vote to “women, foreigners, men under 25, "persons notorious for mischievous opinions," those with a criminal record, active military personnel, etc.

Members of the parliament were required to be fully literate in Persian, "Iranian subjects of Iranian extraction," "locally known," "not be in government employment," between the ages of 30 and 70, and "have some insight into affairs of State.”

It collapsed under massive corruption and a resultant coup d’état (maybe they should have allowed soldiers the right to vote?). It was a dictatorship after the coup d’état, and remained so, even though the country was Western in style, and various freedoms for the populace.

Let’s not forget that you said, “Middle East” not “Iran”. Related but not the same.

Finally, and this is really a significant point given your post above - the Anglo Persian Oil company that was formed in 1909 was solely British, not American, and as a part of the Commonwealth, before Dominion was granted, Canada was part of that enterprise.

In 1954, APOC became British Petroleum.

I love history but revisionist history is repugnant.

So is moral preening.

Thank you for the detailed history.
Do you have any insights or comments on the 1953 to 1979 time period before the "Islamic Revolution" took over?

 

[mk378]

Destroying your own stuff to prevent invaders from making use of it is a standard military tactic. That should surprise no one. Russia-friendly commentators bellyached that it was some sort of war foul that Ukraine had the audacity to blow up their own bridges to stop the Russian advance toward Kyiv.

The island is in range of drones, missiles, and artillery from the mainland.

that's an act of war.

It's the "Department of War" now. Everything they do is by definition an act of war.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Thank you for the detailed history.
Do you have any insights or comments on the 1953 to 1979 time period before the "Islamic Revolution" took over?

Women were treated infinitely better. In case it’s not clear that means 50% of the population was way better off.

 

[burbguy82]

It is my sincere hope that our ground forces receive overwhelming fire support if they go in - fire support from the air, from surface units, whatever - our strength is in joint operations where the effort is integrated, the effects and objectives clearly defined, and the support to those on the ground is persistent, effective, and capable.

I don’t want our soldiers on an equal footing - I want them to have overwhelming advantage through seamless integration, good weapons, and precision fires in support.

And, if A-10s are available, and we can keep the IRIAF off them, then, by all means, load them heavy and let them loose.

To be completely honest, I don’t want our guys on the ground unless we dominate the air.

Not just control.

Dominate.

By the way, my criticism of the A-10 comes from programmatic considerations (cost vs. capability) and the likely shape of future conflict.

But in this scenario? With complete dominance of the air?

They’re about perfect for the mission.

That's is why I brought you up. 100% agree.

Air dominance first, then ground incursion......not the only way, but the way I would prefer aswell.

 

[Pew]

I would think the Air Strikes that have been executed already constitute war.

Just as targeting the US Marines and French Army, killing 307 in total, while they were in a different country, might be interpreted as war.

I don’t see how taking the island is much different.

True. Everything going on now is basically a war, without calling it one. It seems for the past 15 years air/missile/drone strikes are more 'tolerated' as compared to a land invasion.

 

[Dave Hess]

USA on a very slippery slope.

Very difficult to exit this ‘problem’ easily.

 

[Astro14]

Thank you for the detailed history.
Do you have any insights or comments on the 1953 to 1979 time period before the "Islamic Revolution" took over?

The Pahlavi regime took power in 1925, after the British appointed Reza Pahlavi commander of the forces executing the coup d’état in 1921.

We, the West in General, but mostly the US and UK, supported the Regime because he was, frankly, pro western, when most Middle Eastern Nations weren’t. Iran was a bulwark against Russian influence in the region during much of the Cold War.

There were military, and economic, considerations in supporting a dictator but when you look at Iran under Mohammed Reza Pahlavi, Reza’s son, who took over in 1941, it was very Western.

Political and religious freedom existed. Journalists were allowed to criticize the government. Women wore modern styles. Women served in the Army, were able to vote, able to serve in government, attend University and were guaranteed equal pay. Per capita income was high. Note that none of those rights existed during Iranian “democracy” decades prior.

It was a nice place to live. The US was close enough to the Shah to train his pilots, equip his Army* and sell them the F-14.

People may abhor the construct of a dictatorship, but this was a dictatorship focused on the advancement of culture and rights. The country was moving in the right direction. Expanding rights and opportunities for all. Take a look at this Iranian army photo taken in the 1960s.

What do you see?

Mixed gender. Western style. The western ideals of equal rights and equal opportunity on full display for everyone.

Since 1979, there has been tremendous loss of freedom, loss of exercise of rights, and of income per capita. Women must wear the hijab in public and can be beaten at will by religious police if they are caught without it.

Iran left the frying pan for the fire in 1979 and has not recovered. Tens of thousands of Iranians have died at the hands of authorities because they were protesting this regime. There is no recourse against the secret police.

By the way, Persia is among the oldest continuous civilizations on Earth. I have no animosity towards the people of Iran, but the brutal dictatorship under which they now live is far worse than the Pahlavi** regime.



*We gave them M1 rifles, for example, in 1963, principally the International Harvester made variants because the Shah trusted IH, having had experience with IH tractors.

**Reza Pahlavi, the Shah’s son, heir to the dynasty, went to Williams College. I did not meet him, but my interest in Iran goes back a ways.

 

[burbguy82]

US Army says the last time was 2003.

https://www.army.mil/article/265117...he_20th_anniversary_of_their_last_combat_jump

Yeah, ornamental jump.......

If you know, you know.

 

[y_p_w]

*We gave them M1 rifles, for example, in 1963, principally the International Harvester made variants because the Shah trusted IH, having had experience with IH tractors.

He was the one making the decisions after the F-14/F-15 fly off too. If they had chosen the F-15, that might be a lot more sources of parts.

 

[xspeedy]

The US, and really the West, is unprepared for drone warfare. An airbase in Saudi Arabia housing US aircraft was hit. The US can take the island, but what is the plan to defend troops against a drone swarm? Ukraine is going to be quite the modern warfare leader for the West. Multi-million dollar missile systems are simply not sustainable.