No. However, it shouldn't be too difficult to do once you understand the process. Look up the Peerless XLS subwoofer driver + the passive radiator combination as another option. Madisound should sell these and provide box dimensions.
Subwoofer Amp Selection
- Thread starter TWG1572
- Start date
Originally Posted By: TWG1572
.....and it does have changeable input sensitivity which might eliminate the need for a Clean Box to increase my sub signal from my AVR........
...Downsides are no DSP.........I'd need to buy a miniDSP or something like that since my reciever doesn't do that. (And yes, I ignored the advice from wise people on this forum last fall when I failed to buy an AVR with subwoofer equilization ability such as Audessy. Just putting that out there before someone else does)
I'm sure you have read the long thread about these amps on AVS. The reviews are pretty much all positive except for one or two people that have said they were able to measure some odd harmonics.
To your questions:
No, you definitely won't need a Clean Box. The amp will work with User selectable input sensitivity - 0.775V and 1.4V which covers probably every AVR you could possibly buy.
You absolutely will either want to get the iNuke with DSP or purchase a MiniDSP. Especially since you don't have Audyssey. It is pretty much impossible that you will get a decent curve out of them without some form of DSP or room correction. There's no point in spending the time and money to do it and then cripple yourself with sub par performance. The MiniDSP, plugin and shipping will run you $135-155 depending on if you want the balanced model or not. Factor that price in with the price of the Crown to compare it to the iNuke.
I don't think the iNukes are the flavor of the month as members have been using them for quite a while now. As long as you know the RMS values are about 2/3rds of their "quoted" power (which you did state that you knew) there is no "catch" with them. The reason they are so popular is simple. Lots of power plus DSP for the most competitive price.
If you factor in the MiniDSP, the price of the Crown goes to $435 or so. You could even get the 6000DSP for $399 and then you have 2200 watts (3000 peak) for each channel and you're still cheaper than the Crown/Mini setup.
Good luck.
.....and it does have changeable input sensitivity which might eliminate the need for a Clean Box to increase my sub signal from my AVR........
...Downsides are no DSP.........I'd need to buy a miniDSP or something like that since my reciever doesn't do that. (And yes, I ignored the advice from wise people on this forum last fall when I failed to buy an AVR with subwoofer equilization ability such as Audessy. Just putting that out there before someone else does)
I'm sure you have read the long thread about these amps on AVS. The reviews are pretty much all positive except for one or two people that have said they were able to measure some odd harmonics.
To your questions:
No, you definitely won't need a Clean Box. The amp will work with User selectable input sensitivity - 0.775V and 1.4V which covers probably every AVR you could possibly buy.
You absolutely will either want to get the iNuke with DSP or purchase a MiniDSP. Especially since you don't have Audyssey. It is pretty much impossible that you will get a decent curve out of them without some form of DSP or room correction. There's no point in spending the time and money to do it and then cripple yourself with sub par performance. The MiniDSP, plugin and shipping will run you $135-155 depending on if you want the balanced model or not. Factor that price in with the price of the Crown to compare it to the iNuke.
I don't think the iNukes are the flavor of the month as members have been using them for quite a while now. As long as you know the RMS values are about 2/3rds of their "quoted" power (which you did state that you knew) there is no "catch" with them. The reason they are so popular is simple. Lots of power plus DSP for the most competitive price.
If you factor in the MiniDSP, the price of the Crown goes to $435 or so. You could even get the 6000DSP for $399 and then you have 2200 watts (3000 peak) for each channel and you're still cheaper than the Crown/Mini setup.
Good luck.
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Yup, the only reason I threw this question out was because of that thread. I watched it pretty closely. But the more I think about it, and as you pointed out, the DSP is a pretty useful feature to have. Somewhere on avs I read that the inuke has an input sensitivity of 0.75, assuming that's true I should be ok without the clean box there too I think. I'm a bit of a contrarian at heart, so when I see everyone flocking to one solution I tend to question it and look at alternate points of view. Sometimes that approach works well, sometimes it bites me in the rear.... But it certainly helps me learn more, which is the point I guess. But it does seem like the inuke is the cost efficient, common sense solution.
Sleddriver - the driver you pointed out brings up something I've never been able to reconcile. There seem to be two schools of thought in subs. Those similar to what you see at Madisound, and those common on forums like avs and hometheatreshack. It's a contrast of smaller driver higher dollar systems vs. larger higher powered drivers. The larger drivers clearly win the SPL competition, which was the same when I modeled the peerless. But raw SPL isn't everything. So what is the philosophy behind the Madisound type systems? Smaller size, efficiency, and sound quality perhaps? Multiple smaller subs are easier to incorporate in a room decor wise. I'm just trying to reconcile the approaches in my mind and understand the strengths of both.
Meaning the difference in driver selection & size? There are many considerations to think about, almost overwhelming actually. I've not kept up on the forums you mention, so I'm not sure what the consensus there thinks except in this case, 18's driven by prosound amps. A cone that large is rather heavy to have a low Fs, so it's not going to be as efficient and will require more power to move it. Mass works in cones just like cars. If I put the mouse-motor in the sled (2.3l, turbo'd, about 3,300 #) in my neighbors Surburban (about 7,400#'s) it will be severely underpowered. More mass to move around requires more power to keep it responsive.
Also, Madisound didn't design the Peerless XLS drivers. Peerless did. For a very specific application. They also designed the 'drone-cone' to go along with it. Specifically for use with it. You will probably find additional info on suggested alignments on Peerless' site.
Siegfried Linkwitz used this driver in his THOR subwoofer. Look up his site and do some reading. There is a lot of detailed, methodical reasoning going on there. You can also download his closed-box spreadsheet and play around with it. (Be warned his model-based SS requires the use of the term Rms, which may or may not be included in your T/S parameter list. You can calculate it yourself using the eqn: Rms = (2 x pi x Fs x Mms)/Qms.The units are Kg/sec or Newton-second/meter, so be sure to keep your metric units straight.
Lastly, keep in mind quality vs. quantity AND T-rex footfalls, while impressive at first, will wear thin with the Mrs. and yourself eventually, particularly in a basement. If you have kids, you won't be able to use the system after they go to sleep either. If you have dogs that panic during thunderstorms, they'll be a nervous wreck.
Keep the big picture in mind before going very large, very deep and very loud.
Also, Madisound didn't design the Peerless XLS drivers. Peerless did. For a very specific application. They also designed the 'drone-cone' to go along with it. Specifically for use with it. You will probably find additional info on suggested alignments on Peerless' site.
Siegfried Linkwitz used this driver in his THOR subwoofer. Look up his site and do some reading. There is a lot of detailed, methodical reasoning going on there. You can also download his closed-box spreadsheet and play around with it. (Be warned his model-based SS requires the use of the term Rms, which may or may not be included in your T/S parameter list. You can calculate it yourself using the eqn: Rms = (2 x pi x Fs x Mms)/Qms.The units are Kg/sec or Newton-second/meter, so be sure to keep your metric units straight.
Lastly, keep in mind quality vs. quantity AND T-rex footfalls, while impressive at first, will wear thin with the Mrs. and yourself eventually, particularly in a basement. If you have kids, you won't be able to use the system after they go to sleep either. If you have dogs that panic during thunderstorms, they'll be a nervous wreck.
Keep the big picture in mind before going very large, very deep and very loud.
Originally Posted By: TWG1572
Yup, the only reason I threw this question out was because of that thread. I watched it pretty closely. But the more I think about it, and as you pointed out, the DSP is a pretty useful feature to have. Somewhere on avs I read that the inuke has an input sensitivity of 0.75, assuming that's true I should be ok without the clean box there too I think. I'm a bit of a contrarian at heart, so when I see everyone flocking to one solution I tend to question it and look at alternate points of view. Sometimes that approach works well, sometimes it bites me in the rear.... But it certainly helps me learn more, which is the point I guess. But it does seem like the inuke is the cost efficient, common sense solution.
I HIGHLY recommend the DSP or a MiniDSP since you don't have Audyssey. Most guys see benefits with a DSP even on top of Audyssey.
I don't remember the exact spec for the iNuke, but you are correct that is very low and won't need a Clean Box.
I applaud you for using your brain and checking other options before doing what everyone else is doing, but in this situation, it seems to be your best choice. As you know, there are some very knowledgeable guys on AVS in the DIY forum that have LOTS of experience with different amps and a good amount of them use the iNukes.
Yup, the only reason I threw this question out was because of that thread. I watched it pretty closely. But the more I think about it, and as you pointed out, the DSP is a pretty useful feature to have. Somewhere on avs I read that the inuke has an input sensitivity of 0.75, assuming that's true I should be ok without the clean box there too I think. I'm a bit of a contrarian at heart, so when I see everyone flocking to one solution I tend to question it and look at alternate points of view. Sometimes that approach works well, sometimes it bites me in the rear.... But it certainly helps me learn more, which is the point I guess. But it does seem like the inuke is the cost efficient, common sense solution.
I HIGHLY recommend the DSP or a MiniDSP since you don't have Audyssey. Most guys see benefits with a DSP even on top of Audyssey.
I don't remember the exact spec for the iNuke, but you are correct that is very low and won't need a Clean Box.
I applaud you for using your brain and checking other options before doing what everyone else is doing, but in this situation, it seems to be your best choice. As you know, there are some very knowledgeable guys on AVS in the DIY forum that have LOTS of experience with different amps and a good amount of them use the iNukes.
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
A cone that large is rather heavy to have a low Fs, so it's not going to be as efficient and will require more power to move it.
PE doesn't list any bigger Peerless drivers for comparisons sake.
Peerless 835017 12" Aluminum Cone XXLS Subwoofer
Sensitivity_____88.6 dB 2.83V/1m
Resonant Frequency (Fs)___22 Hz
SI HT18
Sensitivity (1w/1m) 88.7 db
Fs 17 Hz
A cone that large is rather heavy to have a low Fs, so it's not going to be as efficient and will require more power to move it.
PE doesn't list any bigger Peerless drivers for comparisons sake.
Peerless 835017 12" Aluminum Cone XXLS Subwoofer
Sensitivity_____88.6 dB 2.83V/1m
Resonant Frequency (Fs)___22 Hz
SI HT18
Sensitivity (1w/1m) 88.7 db
Fs 17 Hz
Originally Posted By: Zeus33
I applaud you for using your brain and checking other options before doing what everyone else is doing, but in this situation, it seems to be your best choice. As you know, there are some very knowledgeable guys on AVS in the DIY forum that have LOTS of experience with different amps and a good amount of them use the iNukes.
I'd agree. I've likely crossed the line well into the over thinking zone. Worst case scenario, I have to put one of the Noctura fans into the iNuke to quiet it down some. I'll be posting my build over in AVS here in the next month or so. I know it's going to be plain jane compared to what I see over there, but maybe it will help someone like me out along the way. Not everyone can build the massive systems we see over there.
I applaud you for using your brain and checking other options before doing what everyone else is doing, but in this situation, it seems to be your best choice. As you know, there are some very knowledgeable guys on AVS in the DIY forum that have LOTS of experience with different amps and a good amount of them use the iNukes.
I'd agree. I've likely crossed the line well into the over thinking zone. Worst case scenario, I have to put one of the Noctura fans into the iNuke to quiet it down some. I'll be posting my build over in AVS here in the next month or so. I know it's going to be plain jane compared to what I see over there, but maybe it will help someone like me out along the way. Not everyone can build the massive systems we see over there.
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Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Keep the big picture in mind before going very large, very deep and very loud.
Very good advice. I'm not a bass head, and don't have an interest in shaking pictures off my walls. And I'm not that interested in being able to slam sub 20hz lfe effects with authority.
But I also know I have an extremely large room to deal with. Offhand, I think the dimensions are something in the range of 17x35, before you include the open stairway and attached office with french doors. Concrete is going to help my room gain some, but without that the room gain is essentially zero. Which is why I started thinking big.
I've got to admit, I enjoyed reading Geddes more than Linkwitz. Both are obviously very talented individuals. The articles I read from Geddes boiled it down more, where Linkwitz is more into the math. I'm a numbers guy, but formulas like he's got on his site bring back repressed bad memories of calculus class. I'll keep trying to work through them and the spreadsheet helps. Linkwitz's site also looks outdated, although I do see he keeps a list of papers up to date. Or maybe it's the picture of him from 1980 on the front page that throws me...
The fundamental thing that keeps running through my brain is that assuming one properly sets the SPL levels when setting up, a system with large drivers shouldn't be any louder than smaller drivers. The larger drivers may have more reserve headroom, but it comes at the expense of large cabs. From a cost perspective, the systems are roughly the same dollar wise, with a slight edge to the SI 18" system. But I'd assume the Peerless woofer is higher quality than the SI ones, or should be given it's price point.
I guess this is the painful part of DIY. You just can't bop down to Best Buy and demo subs and decide which way to go. Nor can you send them back if you don't like them once they are installed. Worst case scenario is that I drop $1,000 and find that either (a) the 18" woofer system is way overkill and/or distorted, or (b) the Peerless approach just gets lost in all the cuft I have.
Keep the big picture in mind before going very large, very deep and very loud.
Very good advice. I'm not a bass head, and don't have an interest in shaking pictures off my walls. And I'm not that interested in being able to slam sub 20hz lfe effects with authority.
But I also know I have an extremely large room to deal with. Offhand, I think the dimensions are something in the range of 17x35, before you include the open stairway and attached office with french doors. Concrete is going to help my room gain some, but without that the room gain is essentially zero. Which is why I started thinking big.
I've got to admit, I enjoyed reading Geddes more than Linkwitz. Both are obviously very talented individuals. The articles I read from Geddes boiled it down more, where Linkwitz is more into the math. I'm a numbers guy, but formulas like he's got on his site bring back repressed bad memories of calculus class. I'll keep trying to work through them and the spreadsheet helps. Linkwitz's site also looks outdated, although I do see he keeps a list of papers up to date. Or maybe it's the picture of him from 1980 on the front page that throws me...
The fundamental thing that keeps running through my brain is that assuming one properly sets the SPL levels when setting up, a system with large drivers shouldn't be any louder than smaller drivers. The larger drivers may have more reserve headroom, but it comes at the expense of large cabs. From a cost perspective, the systems are roughly the same dollar wise, with a slight edge to the SI 18" system. But I'd assume the Peerless woofer is higher quality than the SI ones, or should be given it's price point.
I guess this is the painful part of DIY. You just can't bop down to Best Buy and demo subs and decide which way to go. Nor can you send them back if you don't like them once they are installed. Worst case scenario is that I drop $1,000 and find that either (a) the 18" woofer system is way overkill and/or distorted, or (b) the Peerless approach just gets lost in all the cuft I have.
Originally Posted By: TWG1572
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Keep the big picture in mind before going very large, very deep and very loud.
Very good advice. I'm not a bass head, and don't have an interest in shaking pictures off my walls. And I'm not that interested in being able to slam sub 20hz lfe effects with authority.
But I also know I have an extremely large room to deal with. Offhand, I think the dimensions are something in the range of 17x35, before you include the open stairway and attached office with french doors. Concrete is going to help my room gain some, but without that the room gain is essentially zero. Which is why I started thinking big.
I've got to admit, I enjoyed reading Geddes more than Linkwitz. Both are obviously very talented individuals. The articles I read from Geddes boiled it down more, where Linkwitz is more into the math. I'm a numbers guy, but formulas like he's got on his site bring back repressed bad memories of calculus class. I'll keep trying to work through them and the spreadsheet helps. Linkwitz's site also looks outdated, although I do see he keeps a list of papers up to date. Or maybe it's the picture of him from 1980 on the front page that throws me...
The fundamental thing that keeps running through my brain is that assuming one properly sets the SPL levels when setting up, a system with large drivers shouldn't be any louder than smaller drivers. The larger drivers may have more reserve headroom, but it comes at the expense of large cabs. From a cost perspective, the systems are roughly the same dollar wise, with a slight edge to the SI 18" system. But I'd assume the Peerless woofer is higher quality than the SI ones, or should be given it's price point.
I guess this is the painful part of DIY. You just can't bop down to Best Buy and demo subs and decide which way to go. Nor can you send them back if you don't like them once they are installed. Worst case scenario is that I drop $1,000 and find that either (a) the 18" woofer system is way overkill and/or distorted, or (b) the Peerless approach just gets lost in all the cuft I have.
Thanks. OK so you have a large room with multiple openings. Glad to hear you've been reading both Geddes and Linkwitz. He's given you the math with the Peerless, which will be slightly different with the updated driver. But you can follow along this example with the 18" and using the spreadsheet, see various SPL's vs amp power.
Note that most sub-drivers are throw-limited (Xmax) at the bottom and power limited at higher freqs. Cranking through the math means your design is based on something other than someone else's guess or 'feelings' on a site. It gives you a basis.
Quote:
The fundamental thing that keeps running through my brain is that assuming one properly sets the SPL levels when setting up, a system with large drivers shouldn't be any louder than smaller drivers. The larger drivers may have more reserve headroom, but it comes at the expense of large cabs. From a cost perspective, the systems are roughly the same dollar wise, with a slight edge to the SI 18" system. But I'd assume the Peerless woofer is higher quality than the SI ones, or should be given it's price point.
There are always trade-offs, with subs its throw-limited vs power-limited. These numbers will be higher with room gain vs. free air. Outdoors (free-air) you have no room gain, nor any nodes because there's no room. Indoors, you have both. Multiple subs, when properly placed, results in more even bass than a single. If you just seat 4 people, it's not too critical. If you regularly have parties of 8+, then it is.
You don't want a huge peak in your stairwell and little where you sit.
Re: driver comparisons. Motor strength is key (BL), a heavy cone has a lower Fs due to it's increased mass. As Linkwitz' SS shows, it takes lots of power to move the cone above the resonant frequency, so more power helps.
Whenever you put a driver in a box, it's Fs rises. Playing 'what if' with a box calculator like Linkwitz' really helps here.
I also noticed that Geddes has put his entire HT design book on line. I'd highly suggest you download it and read up. There's lots of good info in it.
Good luck.
Originally Posted By: sleddriver
Keep the big picture in mind before going very large, very deep and very loud.
Very good advice. I'm not a bass head, and don't have an interest in shaking pictures off my walls. And I'm not that interested in being able to slam sub 20hz lfe effects with authority.
But I also know I have an extremely large room to deal with. Offhand, I think the dimensions are something in the range of 17x35, before you include the open stairway and attached office with french doors. Concrete is going to help my room gain some, but without that the room gain is essentially zero. Which is why I started thinking big.
I've got to admit, I enjoyed reading Geddes more than Linkwitz. Both are obviously very talented individuals. The articles I read from Geddes boiled it down more, where Linkwitz is more into the math. I'm a numbers guy, but formulas like he's got on his site bring back repressed bad memories of calculus class. I'll keep trying to work through them and the spreadsheet helps. Linkwitz's site also looks outdated, although I do see he keeps a list of papers up to date. Or maybe it's the picture of him from 1980 on the front page that throws me...
The fundamental thing that keeps running through my brain is that assuming one properly sets the SPL levels when setting up, a system with large drivers shouldn't be any louder than smaller drivers. The larger drivers may have more reserve headroom, but it comes at the expense of large cabs. From a cost perspective, the systems are roughly the same dollar wise, with a slight edge to the SI 18" system. But I'd assume the Peerless woofer is higher quality than the SI ones, or should be given it's price point.
I guess this is the painful part of DIY. You just can't bop down to Best Buy and demo subs and decide which way to go. Nor can you send them back if you don't like them once they are installed. Worst case scenario is that I drop $1,000 and find that either (a) the 18" woofer system is way overkill and/or distorted, or (b) the Peerless approach just gets lost in all the cuft I have.
Thanks. OK so you have a large room with multiple openings. Glad to hear you've been reading both Geddes and Linkwitz. He's given you the math with the Peerless, which will be slightly different with the updated driver. But you can follow along this example with the 18" and using the spreadsheet, see various SPL's vs amp power.
Note that most sub-drivers are throw-limited (Xmax) at the bottom and power limited at higher freqs. Cranking through the math means your design is based on something other than someone else's guess or 'feelings' on a site. It gives you a basis.
Quote:
The fundamental thing that keeps running through my brain is that assuming one properly sets the SPL levels when setting up, a system with large drivers shouldn't be any louder than smaller drivers. The larger drivers may have more reserve headroom, but it comes at the expense of large cabs. From a cost perspective, the systems are roughly the same dollar wise, with a slight edge to the SI 18" system. But I'd assume the Peerless woofer is higher quality than the SI ones, or should be given it's price point.
There are always trade-offs, with subs its throw-limited vs power-limited. These numbers will be higher with room gain vs. free air. Outdoors (free-air) you have no room gain, nor any nodes because there's no room. Indoors, you have both. Multiple subs, when properly placed, results in more even bass than a single. If you just seat 4 people, it's not too critical. If you regularly have parties of 8+, then it is.
You don't want a huge peak in your stairwell and little where you sit.
Re: driver comparisons. Motor strength is key (BL), a heavy cone has a lower Fs due to it's increased mass. As Linkwitz' SS shows, it takes lots of power to move the cone above the resonant frequency, so more power helps.
Whenever you put a driver in a box, it's Fs rises. Playing 'what if' with a box calculator like Linkwitz' really helps here.
I also noticed that Geddes has put his entire HT design book on line. I'd highly suggest you download it and read up. There's lots of good info in it.
Good luck.
I agree to an extent, but I believe your statement needs some clarification. For example, using an amp rated for 1000 WRMS at 4 ohms to drive an 8 ohm driver rated for 500 WRMS would be fine, because the amp would then only be pushing 500 watts. However, driving a 4 ohm sub rated the same with the same amp, the sub wouldn't last very long if it's driven a to high volume levels. I know, I've done this very setup. The subs sounded great while they lasted, but they both eventually blew. Using DVC subs also gives you a lot more flexibility in terms of wiring for different impedances. Doubling the impedance also doubles the dampening factor, and lowers the THD. It's also is easier on the amp...
I think we can build upon our thinking here. You are totally correct about power levels, exactly right about the impedance and wattage. What folks can miss is that when considering damping factor is the reverse equation, where the speaker‘s momentum generates power back into the amp, which the amp then has to absorb and control. i like your example of driving the 4 ohm sub with the matched 4 ohm amp - as it proves what I’m hoping to illustrate. The subs can experience cone excursion beyond the control of the amp, as it continues to move from momentum … and the amp isn’t absorbing enough of the back current, and the cone goes a bit wild, potentially into over-exertion. If it does this, there’s a double-whammy when it slips out of, and then back into, the magnetic field of the magnet, getting smacked hard mechanically and off in another direction, only to over-extend again.
two factors I look for then, is to oversize the amp, factoring between analog or digital, and, as you also suggested, avoid 4 ohm setups (while parts can be found for specific builds, 4 ohm is not the standard for PA cabs). The issue with the smaller 4 ohm coil is that it generates less voltage from cone movement, providing less ”grip” back to the amp for it to hold on to with.
if I’m singing to the choir, I apologize. But i couldn't tell if this particular perspective was clear.
just out of curiosity, what cabs were you running?
I had a pair of Sundown subs rated for 150 WRMS each, and I was pushing them with a 600 WRMS Alpine amp. They sounded awesome until they popped...BTW, these were for a car audio system, the one I'm doing now is for my HT system...
You sized that by the book - I’ll bet it did sound great!
watcha building at home? Have you looked at the PPSL designs? I just finished a pair of BFM tubas for micro PA and they are impressive, minus serious EQ needed to compensate for the small horn nature. (since any EQ adds distortion, I try to avoid it at all costs, though some artifacts can then be adjusted with delay… but it’s still a compromise).
I almost stopped on the tubas though when I came across PPSL. I’ve never heard a set but the discussions online are intriguing. As you can probably attest, speaker building can become a disease and I’m in the recovery stage…. So it might be a while before I build more…
I'm currently building the Parts Express sealed sub enclosure (part #300-7077) for their HO reference series DVC 12. I like their sub kits because they're precision cut and sized for their subs. I will be powering the sub with their SPA500DSP amp. I will series the VCs for an 8 ohm load, which means the amp's output will be limited to 250 WRMS. I'm not looking for house foundation shaking bass, but rather some nice sounding bottom end to complement my sound bar. I used to have a full blown HT system with all of the surround speakers and such, but I got sick of all of the speaker clutter and wiring everywhere, so I decided to downsize and just go with a sound bar. Obviously, the sound bar doesn't reproduce sound like the surround speakers did, but it does a surprisingly good job for just a sound bar. I think with the addition of the sub it will do just fine...
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Typically, what destroys speakers is distortion. If you can avoid that, it's more difficult to cause damage. That's where the rule of thumb about exceeding the speaker's rated wattage comes from, as once you begin to approach the limit of the amp's headroom, in particular with less expensive ones, clipping and distortion can occur, which will destroy a speaker even if the speaker has a higher wattage rating.
Now, yes, you can over-drive a driver and overheat the coil(s). But this is more difficult to do than killing a speaker with distortion.
This is an old thread, and I've since updated what is powering my mains. Current setup consists of a Bryston 4B, which will push ~270/channel and has some very good specs:
The speakers it is driving are Paradigm Monitor 11 V7's rated for 180W.
