Storing lawn mower with no oil..

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: cryption
I run the gas out in mine, but store it with the oil from that season. I run a Synthetic oil in my mower so I'm not worried about it sitting until the next spring. It stays lubricated, and there isn't a chance of moisture building up over the winter because I'm going to throw fresh oil in it before I start it the first time. I would rather store it with the old oil and throw the fresh oil in at the beginning of the season.

Plus, it's part of my ritual. At the beginning of the season I change the oil and spark plug in all my equipment.



I don't fully understand the change-after-storage rationale which some people post.

You are concerned about moisture possibly being in the oil after storage. Let's assume that it's a fact that you WILL accumulate moisture over your storage season (just how long is the "winter" "storage" season in TX anyways?) for the purpose of discussion.

With the old oil in place you have all of the sulphur, nitrogen and wear metals in your oil. When that guaranteed moisture strikes now they form acids which are definitely in your oil all "winter". Then you put fresh oil in for the spring and start it up with no water.

With new oil in the crankcase, you have clean and fresh oil in place which picks up a little bit of moisture. No acids or other gunk forming. In the spring you start it up and there's some condensation in the oil. Is this enough condensation to interfere with splash lubrication? If not it will burn off pretty quickly in the air cooled OPE and you'll still be back to fresh, clean oil.

Which does the equipment more harm? A storage season with acid in the case or the possibility that there may be some reduced lubrication due to condensation which will burn off?

In case anyone couldn't tell I'm a pre-storage oil changer in all applications (including road vehicles). I also store with fuel tank dry, although some of my OPE actually comes into my basement so it's as much about not having gasoline indoors as it is about storage regimen. I also fog the cylinders and run Amsoil AST stabilizer in all OPE fuel throughout the season.

 

[cryption]

Craig, I can absolutely see your rationale and don't disagree with your points.

I think for me it's more part of the ritual of changing my oil at the beginning of the season to get me in that frame of mind.

Likewise, with the high quality oil I put in the mower I'm not so concerned about acids etc. While your points are valid, the mower went 6 years without an oil change before it came into my possession. I run OS synthetic in it, and it's a Briggs motor. Also, the 20 hours a season it runs can't be too hard on an oil that people on 10,000+ miles in a vehicle.

I think I benefit more from the mental gearing up to do yardwork (a chore I truly hate) then the acids that will surely buildup like you described. Maybe I'll throw in some oil stabilizer.

On the other hand, as moisture is related on the initial start: I would still have less. I'll start my mower with fresh oil next spring, whereas you'll have to burn off the moisture in yours.

Plus, it gives me a whole winter to decide what oil to run next! Isn't that the most fun part?

 

[boraticus]

With all this talk of "acid build up", I must ask if anyone here has had an engine fail prematurely due to acid build up and if so, what method was used to establish that "acid build up" was the cause?

I've never had it happen to me nor do I worry about it. Come to think of it, I've never seen nor heard of anyone having their engine fail prematurely due to acid accumulation in the oil.

 

[cryption]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
With all this talk of "acid build up", I must ask if anyone here has had an engine fail prematurely due to acid build up and if so, what method was used to establish that "acid build up" was the cause?

I've never had it happen to me nor do I worry about it. Come to think of it, I've never seen nor heard of anyone having their engine fail prematurely due to acid accumulation in the oil.



Likewise - I've never had an issue.

 

[boraticus]

"Likewise - I've never had an issue."

Just throwing this out there.....

Could the dreaded engine failure due to "acid build up" in the oil possibly be the oil companies fear mongering to cause people to buy and use more of their products?

After all, how long would it take to have that much sulphur and water to accumulate in the oil to produce enough acid to begin corroding bearings?

Not saying it's impossible, just unlikely.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
With all this talk of "acid build up", I must ask if anyone here has had an engine fail prematurely due to acid build up and if so, what method was used to establish that "acid build up" was the cause?

I've never had it happen to me nor do I worry about it. Come to think of it, I've never seen nor heard of anyone having their engine fail prematurely due to acid accumulation in the oil.


Sometimes things are better and worse without needing to see a story of utter failure from doing things one way versus another.

They have full laser eye surgery and one where they still use a knife to cut your cornea open. The 100% laser one is reportedly better with fewer complications, but who here knows someone who has gone blind from the knife method? If no one does, does that mean that the laser method isn't still better?

All kinds of things can be "better" and "worse" without utter failure if the "worse" path is chosen.

You're unlikely to see "failure", you might see more oil consumption, more smoking, slow loss of compression and accelerated wear. You might have pitting of hidden surfaces, or quicker flash rusting internally while stored. Without a set of "control" engines you might not know just what is "premature" and what isn't.

When people start seeing smoke they just think it's "old", or blame China (really popular lately), or start threads like "the unkillable Briggs". How do you propose these same people would tell if oil contaminants caused the problem and whether they'd still have 5 more smoke-free years if they only changed their oil at the end of the season? I doubt you'll ever see someone prove it conclusively.

OPE can be expensive. Doing a 5min oil change in November or April is the same amount of work in either month and in my opinion there is a "better" order to do it after weighing pros and cons. Of course it's most important to change the oil at all regardless of whether it is before or after storage.

Specifically I change the oil HOT right after a mulching run near the end of the season. We've all seen the [censored] that settles at the bottom of even brand new oil - why give all the wear material the winter to settle and bond to interior surfaces? In particular those who change the oil cold without running first - you're leaving a lot of the "worst stuff" behind instead of flushing it out.

Of course - your OPE, your choice. I really only care if you try to sell it to me later.

 

[Cmarti]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
Originally Posted By: dave123
The oil is fresh if stored on the shelf or poured into the motor. I always store my snowblower or lawn mower with fresh oil and ready to go for next sprng or winter.


+1 I add Stabil and MMO to the gas, run it until its hot and fog the engine. I drain the oil and fill with fresh oil and put the mower away. It has been working well for me.


I drain the gas and run the carb empty, or drain the bowl when applicable.....am I getting to uptight in my old age Demar....

 

[tmorris1]

Originally Posted By: boraticus

"Likewise - I've never had an issue."

Just throwing this out there.....

Could the dreaded engine failure due to "acid build up" in the oil possibly be the oil companies fear mongering to cause people to buy and use more of their products?

After all, how long would it take to have that much sulphur and water to accumulate in the oil to produce enough acid to begin corroding bearings?

Not saying it's impossible, just unlikely.




With this line of thinking then why even change the oil in the spring? Might as well run it another year as the oil is probably good. In all honesty most OPE never gets the oil changed in its life and they still run for years. I change mine before storage, but any change is better than none.

 

[boraticus]

Yo Craig:

Have you ever taken an engine completely apart? Better yet have you ever taken numerous engines apart? If so, how much rust/corrosion did you observe?

I've taken many, many engines apart usually to rebuild or modify them. Many old, a few newer ones. I recall one occasion where I observed a small bit of tarnish on one crankshaft couterweight on a 35 year old Yamaha two cycle engine. Two cycles spend all of their lives with NO oil in the crankcase yet they seem to survive year after year after year.

Let us review what would be required for acid build up to occur, then to accumulate to sufficient levels to be of concern, then to introduce water in sufficient quantity to be a contributing factor then the combination of the two combined with oxygen to complete the necessities for corrosion.

The preponderance of sulphur that enters the oil is generally from the fuel combustion process. Gasoline usually has an average of 300 to 350 ppm which isn't really a significant amount particularly after the combustion process has been completed. Therefore, it would take a great deal of fuel being burnt to have enough sulphur residue made available to be absorbed by the residual oil on the cylinder then ultimately get into the crank case. It would be safe to say that oil would have to be left unchanged for a very long period to become sufficiently contaminated with sulphur to be an issue.

Water is also necessary for the creation of sulphuric acid. Therefore, water would have to be introduced to the crankcase either directly or indirectly by means of condensation. Being that most engines run at temperatures above the boiling point of water and, in particular, air cooled OPE engines which run much hotter, water in the crank case will be heated to the point of vaporization and emitted from the crank case via the the crank case ventilation vent. Therefore, very little water if any, will remain mixed with oil after the engine has been run to full operating temperature.

Now, if for whatever reason, sufficient sulphur and water do exist in the crank case and manage to mix to create sulphuric acid, the level of the acid's potency will be marginal. Combine that with the fact that the acid/water will have accumulated at or very near the bottom of the crank case, oxygen will not be available to assist in the oxidization process.

As I've previously said, acid contamination is not an impossibility however, it's very unlikely in an engine that gets even modest maintenance. I'd be willing to venture that oil would have to be left in the engine for many years before it would achieve levels of contamination that would have even the slightest effect on internal components.

 

[Camu Mahubah]

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...356#Post2011356

UOA of an oil that sat for 16 years in the crankcase through severe seasons. Ummm...no need to store the mower without oil unless you just don't want to.

Make sure you refill in Spring or you will have a seized simple engine. The data I linked you to will support my opinion. Leave the oil in there.

 

[boraticus]

Originally Posted By: Camu Mahubah
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...356#Post2011356

UOA of an oil that sat for 16 years in the crankcase through severe seasons. Ummm...no need to store the mower without oil unless you just don't want to.

Make sure you refill in Spring or you will have a seized simple engine. The data I linked you to will support my opinion. Leave the oil in there.


That pretty much supports my position.

The "acid in the oil" possibility in gasoline engines is blown waaaaaay out of proportion. Just another way to get inexperienced people to spend money on unnecessary oil consumption.

 

[Pop_Rivit]

Originally Posted By: Nick R


Trust me... A Flathead will not go boom. An OHV/OHC, maybe.


Are you sure about that? Can you explain why I occasionally see Briggs, Onan and Kohler engines in old lawn equipment at farm and estate sales with holes in them? And why I see (and owned) Ford flathead 4's with a connecting rod that went through the block in a catastrophic failure? I'd guess most of them (and I'm sure my Ford was) were due to a lack of lubrication.

I have never been there for the actual event, but I suspect that the noise that these engines made when they failed was similar to a "boom".

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
Originally Posted By: Camu Mahubah
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...356#Post2011356

used oil analysis of an oil that sat for 16 years in the crankcase through severe seasons. Ummm...no need to store the mower without oil unless you just don't want to.

Make sure you refill in Spring or you will have a seized simple engine. The data I linked you to will support my opinion. Leave the oil in there.


That pretty much supports my position.

The "acid in the oil" possibility in gasoline engines is blown waaaaaay out of proportion. Just another way to get inexperienced people to spend money on unnecessary oil consumption.



That's a real nice piece which you wrote.

Please explain how this "acid in the oil" conspiracy theory leads me to spend more money on oil because I change oil in the fall instead of the spring - which is my position in this discussion? I never proposed that people should put clean oil in just for storage and then drain that out too (although there are enough people around here recommending that practice too). It's the same oil, same money, same effort, just in a different order.

It's like vacuuming the floors AFTER you dust off the furniture instead of before. Has anyone ever had their house condemned because of the huge difference in dirt level? Has anyone in a housekeeping forum done a lab analysis on extra dirt on the floor from and analyzed the reduction in hardwood floor finish life due to the extra grit? No. But you pick an order and I feel one is better than the other with all other things being equal.

My issue with the 16 y/o oil used oil analysis is that TBN/TAN wasn't done. Why do you bring a used oil analysis with no TBN/TAN analysis to prove a point about acid buildup? The lab said they didn't have a good baseline and they reported higher than normal wear in 256 miles. I don't think that proves any point in favour of neglect.

 

[boraticus]

Craig:

I doubt very much that the oil companies are relying on your purchases solely to keep them in business.

My point is that "acid build up in oil" in gasoline engines is very much over-rated as a potential problem source and inexperienced people often change their oil when it doesn't need changing. Sure it's their choice but it is wasteful and ecologically unwise.

If an engine sits for more than one or two years (or longer) with lightly/moderately used oil in the crank case, it's very unlikely it will develop a problem due to oil contamination. Particularly If it has a good quality oil in it that sees minimal service in a piece of OPE that gets used a few hours a year.

I believe in reasonable maintenance and have never had an oil related problem over the decades that I've owned and operated machines of all sorts.

My riding mower that I use in town gets around 50 hours of work a year. It gets an annual oil change in the spring. My mower at camp sees 10 hours a year. When I put it away after 10 hours on fresh oil, the engine (Honda GX series twin) still has very clean oil in it. Even after the second year with 20 hours on the oil, it still looks virtually new. I see no sense in dumping it when it's still clean. It gets an oil change every third year.

If a person has only a few pieces of equipment to maintain, they can dote over them unnecessarily. When you have numerous machines to maintain, common sense will move to the forefront and sensible maintenance decisions will be made. I've been in that situation for many years. All of my equipment runs well and I've never had a failure yet.

As long as the machine is used every year and the oil is cycled through the engine, I don't see any problems leaving lightly or moderately used oil in the engines. If it's going to be put away for long term storage and not used for years, I'd put put fresh oil in it.

By the way, I don't think anyone is recommending neglect and I certainly disagree that my maintenance procedures are anywhere near neglectful.

There's a difference between reasonable, adequate maintenance and obsession. I'm not obsessed.

 

[Craig in Canada]

Originally Posted By: boraticus
Craig:

There's a difference between reasonable, adequate maintenance and obsession. I'm not obsessed.


I don't consider myself obsessed either.

My power washer only sees a couple of hours per year and it hasn't been changed in a year or two. It has 15W40 HDEO in it.

My snowblower got used once last season for 30 minutes. It wasn't changed either. It has GC in it.

My specific point of discussion is that your 50hr OC on your riding mower would be "better" to be done in the fall instead of the spring - not that you do any more of them. With most OPE not having an oil filter there's usually enough visible wear metal and other gunk that it will definitely settle out of suspension over the winter regardless of any question of acid. I get it all out of there after a nice, hot mow late in the season. Do you run your riding mower hard before doing that OC to try to get all the [censored] back in suspension before you drain it? Again, without an oil filter, the only thing getting that out of the engine is to have it all in suspension when the used oil is drained.

It comes back to what I consider best or good practices. Like changing your oil hot. People can argue and start threads on the subject, and I bet you won't find a case of documented engine failure because a person changed their oil cold, but you get more "[censored]" out when the engine has been running, the material is in suspension and the oil is thinner. Do you have to? NO. Is it any more work? No. Is it "better"? Yes, arguably.

I also use fogging oil in the cylinders when I store an engine. Do I have to? No. Is there a case of engine failure on record because someone didn't do this one step? Probably not. Does it cost more? Yes, about $5 every 10 years. Is it more work? Yes, about 30-60 seconds per engine per year. Will my engine "fail" next year if I don't do it? No. Is it better to coat and lubricate the cylinders before storage? I'd like to see a compelling case why it isn't.