Sorry Ferrari.. Swedish Koenigsegg whips 458

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Maybe it's not the turbo specifically that makes it soulless. Maybe it's a combination of factors, one of which is the always present search for ridiculous power numbers that turbocharging provides, that removes some of the character of a car.

How about this: Will the next M, with it's rumored turbo I6, have the same soul as your E36 M3?

As enthusiasts, certain cars "move" us. Trying to define that is difficult. Is it the physical hardware, the performance numbers, an arbitrary "feel", or something more... the deus ex machina?
 
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Maybe it's not the turbo specifically that makes it soulless. Maybe it's a combination of factors, one of which is the always present search for ridiculous power numbers that turbocharging provides, that removes some of the character of a car.

That seems to make a lot more sense, wouldn't you say?
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That's why I referred to the reviews, which to my knowledge haven't even come close to calling the Agera R soulless. Most of them have said the opposite. Do you know something I don't?


Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
How about this: Will the next M, with it's rumored turbo I6, have the same soul as your E36 M3?

Time will tell.


Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
As enthusiasts, certain cars "move" us. Trying to define that is difficult. Is it the physical hardware, the performance numbers, an arbitrary "feel", or something more... the deus ex machina?

Agreed. This is yet another reason why we have to look at the whole picture based on evidence, rather than speculating based on one or two details.
 
Originally Posted By: cchase
Come to think of it, I don't think there's a product VAG makes that has any soul. Everything they produce looks and feels like a bunch of suit-and-ties dreamed it up in a 4 hour boardroom meeting.


Which is odd given the character their cars used to have. Looking back at their past, cars like the Beetle, GTI, Audi Quattro, and Scirocco. All had tremendous amounts of character.

The story of the original GTI is so un-boardroom that the current GTI is really just a caricature of it's former self.
 
Ok, agree; Audis (and VW, Seat) are boring commuter cars. Advertising made some people, that don't know what they really like, want Audis because of the images in the ads. It is really just because of three things they sell:
1. They have created an image of "sporty engineering"
2. They don't breakt often and they have focused on the "door closing sound"
3. They are slightly cheaper than the cars they *want* to be compared to, but they are a tad more expensive than the actual competition...

So they now have a clientel that don't drive well, rather aggressively, because they think they have a sports car like audi avant 2.0...

So, no soul, no heritage, no popular drivers...

Porsche on the other hand have some heritage and character, they are not really to be associated with VAG corporate...

Anyways, did not realize my initial post would take this turn...
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Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Porsche 911 GT2 RS? Jaguar XJ220? Noble M600? Pagani Huayra?


Like I said, turbo Porsche don't fit my criteria of a supercar. Heck, they run commercials about how practical they are! That's about as un-supercar as Kenny G is un-rock and roll.

XJ200? You got me there. I missed that.

Nobel is a crate away from being a kit car. For a modern supercar, there is too much missing compared to the competitors.

The Pagani... I will say that the Zonda has a much soul as any car out there. The Huayra is just another "me too" car trying to follow up the Veyron.

I think the Veyron really may be one of the keys here. So many of the hypercar manufacturers (Pagani, Koenigsegg, Hennessy, etc.) saw what Bugatti did, putting out 1000+ HP, rolling 250 MPH, and getting a TON of press about it, that they're trying to emulate that. In the process, they created a series of vastly overpowered cars that are technological and engineering masterpieces, but lack a certain old world soul.

I'll give an example outside the auto world: Tag Heuer recently introduced a concept watch, the Mikrotimer Flying 1000. It is the worlds fastest mechanical chronograph. It operates at 3.6 million beats per hour. That's 125 times faster than anything else. It'll cost you a hair over $100,000.

All that and it will never have the soul of a Patek Phillipe. Patek watches don't have any crazy technology and they can't claim any records. It does have artisan levels of old world craftsmanship and a certain link to the past that really makes owning one something special; it's not just a technological marvel. It has soul.


Old world craftsmanship? Have you every worked on an old Italian car?

Let me put it this way, a 70's or 80's vintage Lambo or Ferrari was engineering wise about as far away from the equivalent Porsche or Mercedes as you could get.

You mean soul like AC's that never worked, wires that ran through holes with no chafe protection, engines that ALWAYS leaked oil, carb's that are a PITA to synch up, transmissions that just don't do 2nd unless they are warm, bodies that rust at the slightest hint of salt, interior trim that just falls off, interior quality that would make a 1990's GM product look good, doors that never line up, windows that pop out of the tracks over 140...I could keep going.

A modern Lambo is so, so much better than anything that came before. The Germans really saved them and showed them how to build a properly thought out car. Soul is all fine and dandy but if the car doesn't run, or well it burns down if it sits for to long, its not so good.

Lambo didn't really get good until the tail end of the Diablo and really the Murcielago was where they got really good. Ferrari was slightly better since they had more money, the 348 sucked, the 355 was pretty good, and they got really good with the 360.

The engineering that goes into these modern super cars is really amazing. The Huayra is a spaceship compared to anything coming out of Italy 20 years ago.

The only companies that have consistently always built a pretty good car are BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche. The 959 was the best engineered super car of the 80's. Also an R107 SL is hands down a better built touring car than anything that came out of Italy during that period.
 
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Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Porsche 911 GT2 RS? Jaguar XJ220? Noble M600? Pagani Huayra?


Like I said, turbo Porsche don't fit my criteria of a supercar. Heck, they run commercials about how practical they are! That's about as un-supercar as Kenny G is un-rock and roll.

XJ200? You got me there. I missed that.

Nobel is a crate away from being a kit car. For a modern supercar, there is too much missing compared to the competitors.

The Pagani... I will say that the Zonda has a much soul as any car out there. The Huayra is just another "me too" car trying to follow up the Veyron.

I think the Veyron really may be one of the keys here. So many of the hypercar manufacturers (Pagani, Koenigsegg, Hennessy, etc.) saw what Bugatti did, putting out 1000+ HP, rolling 250 MPH, and getting a TON of press about it, that they're trying to emulate that. In the process, they created a series of vastly overpowered cars that are technological and engineering masterpieces, but lack a certain old world soul.

I'll give an example outside the auto world: Tag Heuer recently introduced a concept watch, the Mikrotimer Flying 1000. It is the worlds fastest mechanical chronograph. It operates at 3.6 million beats per hour. That's 125 times faster than anything else. It'll cost you a hair over $100,000.

All that and it will never have the soul of a Patek Phillipe. Patek watches don't have any crazy technology and they can't claim any records. It does have artisan levels of old world craftsmanship and a certain link to the past that really makes owning one something special; it's not just a technological marvel. It has soul.


Apparently, the XJ200 was a pre-design XJ220.

Jaguar XJ200:

Jaguar-XJ200-2.jpg


Jaguar XJ220:

jaguar_xj220-14.jpg


Now, these cars look like (to me)..

Bugatti EB110:

Bugatti%2BEB%2B110%2BGT%2B4.jpg



The Bugatti EB110 is a mid-engine sports car from Bugatti Automobili SpA. It was apparent on September 15, 1991, in both Versailles and in advanced of the Grande Arche at La Défense in Paris, France, absolutely 110 years afterwards Ettore Bugatti's birth.

The car has a 60-valve, quad-turbo V12 powering all four auto through a six-speed gearbox. The 3.5 L (3499 cc) agent has a bore of 81 mm (3.2 in) and a achievement of 56.6 mm (2.23 in) and is able of 553 hp (412 kW; 561 PS) at 8000 rpm. Acceleration to 100 km/h (62 mph) takes 3 seconds, and the GT has a top acceleration of 215 mph (346 km/h).[1]

The car uses a bifold wishbone suspension, with the anatomy congenital by Aérospatiale, an aircraft company, and fabricated from carbon fibre. Equipped with Gandini's acclaimed appropriation scissor doors, it has a bottle agent awning that provides a appearance of the V12 agent forth with a speed-sensitive cyberbanking rear accession that can be aloft at the flick of a switch. The shift-knob is placed afterpiece to the disciplinarian so that beneath time is taken to shift. Five pre-production prototypes with aluminum anatomy were built, followed by eight with blended chassis. Following these, it is believed that alone 95 GT and 31 SS accumulation models were constructed.

In 1992, a lighter and added able archetypal with 603 hp (450 kW; 611 PS) at 8250 rpm, the EB110 SS (SuperSport) was introduced. This car is able of 216 mph (348 km/h) and 0-100 km/h (62 mph) in 3.2 seconds.

Early in 1994 Formula One disciplinarian Michael Schumacher purchased a banana-yellow EB 110 Super Sport, giving the aggregation a abundant accord of publicity.[2] Derek Hill, son of American Formula One Champion Phil Hill, was one of the three drivers on a aggregation that competed with an EB 110 in the United States at the 1996 24 Hours of Daytona.

Hard times hit the aggregation in 1995 and, as aftereffect of administrator Artioli's over aggressive acquirement of Lotus in accession to the company's adventure to advance the EB112 four aperture car, the aggregation was bankrupt. Dauer Antagonism GmbH of Nuremberg, Germany, bought the semi-finished EB 110 cars in the accumulation bulb additional the genitalia account through the defalcation trustee. The actual anatomy and a adaptation of the agent were after developed by B Engineering into their Edonis sports car.

Despite after antagonism for Ferrari from 1996 advanced and a aerial contour blow with a barter the antecedent year (for which he abhorrent the braking system) Schumacher connected to absorb the EB110SS. Schumacher awash the car in 2003 to Modena Motorsport, a Ferrari barn specialising in service, chase alertness and sales of archetypal Ferraris in Germany.

Chrysler ME412 (never made)

chrysler_me412.jpg


Cizeta Moroder v16t - 1991 (!!!)

97.jpg


V16 engine, 540 bhp (402.7 kW), manual gearbox, weight 1700 kg and a top speed of 328 km/h.
0-100 km: 4 seconds. In 1991, the price of the car was €250,000 and now it costs €650,000.

It sounds like a vacuum cleaner, but the best vacuum cleaner i ever heard. I almost hear a turbo "whoosh" in it..........
h
Costs too much, though. I could live good on that amount of $.
 
Originally Posted By: hattaresguy
Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Originally Posted By: d00df00d

Porsche 911 GT2 RS? Jaguar XJ220? Noble M600? Pagani Huayra?


Like I said, turbo Porsche don't fit my criteria of a supercar. Heck, they run commercials about how practical they are! That's about as un-supercar as Kenny G is un-rock and roll.

XJ200? You got me there. I missed that.

Nobel is a crate away from being a kit car. For a modern supercar, there is too much missing compared to the competitors.

The Pagani... I will say that the Zonda has a much soul as any car out there. The Huayra is just another "me too" car trying to follow up the Veyron.

I think the Veyron really may be one of the keys here. So many of the hypercar manufacturers (Pagani, Koenigsegg, Hennessy, etc.) saw what Bugatti did, putting out 1000+ HP, rolling 250 MPH, and getting a TON of press about it, that they're trying to emulate that. In the process, they created a series of vastly overpowered cars that are technological and engineering masterpieces, but lack a certain old world soul.

I'll give an example outside the auto world: Tag Heuer recently introduced a concept watch, the Mikrotimer Flying 1000. It is the worlds fastest mechanical chronograph. It operates at 3.6 million beats per hour. That's 125 times faster than anything else. It'll cost you a hair over $100,000.

All that and it will never have the soul of a Patek Phillipe. Patek watches don't have any crazy technology and they can't claim any records. It does have artisan levels of old world craftsmanship and a certain link to the past that really makes owning one something special; it's not just a technological marvel. It has soul.


Old world craftsmanship? Have you every worked on an old Italian car?

Let me put it this way, a 70's or 80's vintage Lambo or Ferrari was engineering wise about as far away from the equivalent Porsche or Mercedes as you could get.

You mean soul like AC's that never worked, wires that ran through holes with no chafe protection, engines that ALWAYS leaked oil, carb's that are a PITA to synch up, transmissions that just don't do 2nd unless they are warm, bodies that rust at the slightest hint of salt, interior trim that just falls off, interior quality that would make a 1990's GM product look good, doors that never line up, windows that pop out of the tracks over 140...I could keep going.

A modern Lambo is so, so much better than anything that came before. The Germans really saved them and showed them how to build a properly thought out car. Soul is all fine and dandy but if the car doesn't run, or well it burns down if it sits for to long, its not so good.

Lambo didn't really get good until the tail end of the Diablo and really the Murcielago was where they got really good. Ferrari was slightly better since they had more money, the 348 sucked, the 355 was pretty good, and they got really good with the 360.

The engineering that goes into these modern super cars is really amazing. The Huayra is a spaceship compared to anything coming out of Italy 20 years ago.

The only companies that have consistently always built a pretty good car are BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche. The 959 was the best engineered super car of the 80's. Also an R107 SL is hands down a better built touring car than anything that came out of Italy during that period.





I never said, "old world craftsmanship" when referring to a car. I used that phrase when describing a watch and I will defend watchmakers as craftsmen until the bitter end. I used the words "old world soul" when describing cars.

As with most old cars, especially stuff that came from the '70s and '80s, they really were junk. Yet even the worst Ferraris, the 308, 348, Mondial, or Dino 206, still carried around the weight of Ferrari's racing history (something Lamborghini can't say). The Mondial body was banged out by the same Scaglietti that did the 250 Testa Rossa and 250 GTO. Despite not being the most desirable Ferrari, many of them still have very solid links to the brand's greatness.

Say what you will about Lamborghini, but Gandini's work under Bertone is legendary. There is no other word for it. They may not have been great cars, especially given their contemporaries, but they had soul.

Now, look at the 458. I may be biased, but it's the best looking automobile on earth. As with every modern vehicle, aerodynamic work is part of the development and a large driver of the styling. The 458 doesn't look like it though. It looks organic and flowing, as it had come off a designers pen with no thought to aerodynamics. Yet, it still works aerodynamically.

Compare this to something like a Veyron or Agera. Cars with an ultimate top speed bogey in the mid-200's are designed in a wind tunnel. Designers are given very strict guidelines dictated by what the wind is doing and they must stay within the lines. This is design by engineering. It is very digital. Additionally, and this is where my original comment came from, most of these cars need ridiculous power numbers to meet their goals. Power that can only come from heavy forced induction. This adds to the digital persona.

Nobody will say that a vinyl record playing through an old tube amp is an "accurate" reproduction of sound. This is especially true when you compare it to today's digital audio reproduction on a CD, pushed through a bunch of solid state transistors in a modern amplifier. Yet, some people still prefer the "warm and rich" sound of that tube amp to today's "cold and accurate" music reproduction, even though today's equipment is more "accurate". That's soul.
 
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Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Compare this to something like a Veyron or Agera. Cars with an ultimate top speed bogey in the mid-200's are designed in a wind tunnel. Designers are given very strict guidelines dictated by what the wind is doing and they must stay within the lines. This is design by engineering. It is very digital.

Read up on the Veyron's development. Its shape was conceived as a design study, and THEN it was taken to the wind tunnel. It generated a heck of a lot of lift at first, and the engineers had to figure out how to generate a lot of net downforce -- despite being forbidden from changing the shape significantly.


Originally Posted By: MrHorspwer
Additionally, and this is where my original comment came from, most of these cars need ridiculous power numbers to meet their goals. Power that can only come from heavy forced induction. This adds to the digital persona.

Read some reviews, man. Seriously. The Veyron reviews agree with you, but the Agera R reviews most emphatically do not. It's a bit too early to tell about the Huayra, but early indications are more Agera R than Veyron. Ditto the SSC Ultimate Aero.

Back to your point about these cars being "me too" Veyron killers: they may match or beat the Veyron's speed, but they don't even attempt to match its utter composure, stability, and approachability.

Moreover, I find it hard to accept that turbocharging necessarily detracts from a car's "soul." It makes power delivery uneven, which can make for a pretty vivid experience.
 
Originally Posted By: d00df00d
Moreover, I find it hard to accept that turbocharging necessarily detracts from a car's "soul." It makes power delivery uneven, which can make for a pretty vivid experience.


That may have been true in years past but with variable geometry turbos I'm not sure that's the case anymore. Some of the newer cars have turbos added to even out power delivery. Look at BMW for starters. The torque curve on those is nearly flat.
 
I can see and understand where Mr. Horsepower is coming from, and I DO love the looks of the 458, save for the LED headlight 'cluster', and the stock wheels (which of course CAN be changed).
I also loved the looks of the Scuderia before this.

I will also agree that the Prancing Horses have a certain 'panache' which is just not there in other (hyper-)'exotics', even if they beat them in; fit and finish, top speed/top speed stability, 'video game hero' driver ease digital nannies, (cough, GTR, cough
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), etc.
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This is all in fun, of course, since I don't think any of us will be in the market for a new Koenigsegg or Ferrari (the *budget* choice in this discussion) any time soon.

I just can't bring myself to really like the Koenigsegg. I didn't like the CCX either. On that note, I always thought the Zonda looked awkward and I think the Huayra is a mess inside and out.

I can appreciate the engineering in all the cars though. I can appreciate the workmanship too. As much as I think the interior of the Huayra is a mashed-up bunch of blah, it is all machined aluminium, carbon fiber, and leather. It's incredibly crafted mashed-up blah!

Sorry to the OP; this should have all been in it's own thread.
 
Originally Posted By: Tundraz
I do not think that the Ferrari driver were trying hard enough, that Ferrari can do better than that , much better.


No, that's pretty much what it looks like when a mid-low 120s car (1/4 mile trap) takes on a 140++ mph car.

I don't care if you put Mario Andretti behind the wheel of the 458, it's going to get stomped by the Koenigsegg if its driver has any semblance of a clue.
 
It had soul when it was powered by ford, now they have "their own" motor in it and it's funny that it just happens to be a 5.0L. I wonder what the actual specs of "their motor" is.
 
Originally Posted By: Nate_V8
It had soul when it was powered by ford, now they have "their own" motor in it and it's funny that it just happens to be a 5.0L. I wonder what the actual specs of "their motor" is.


It's still a Modular 4V, they just found outside suppliers for block and head castings and assemble it in-house so they can say it's their "own" engine.
 
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