Something that is lacking with EV discussions.

E

Exhaustgases

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I would like to see some discussions about the EV power train. Like with the ICE vehicles there is lots of information about
modifying engines and transmissions etc. I see almost nothing like this about EV's. I don't think many people even know what really powers them.
Just like with a gasoline or diesel vehicle that fuel is only part of the equation. Just like with the ICE vehicles. If enough people were into figuring how to, for lack of better term or terms (as an example), port the heads and install a race cam in an EV, maybe something much better with less battery issues could be figured out.
 
Exhaustgases said:
I would like to see some discussions about the EV power train. Like with the ICE vehicles there is lots of information about
modifying engines and transmissions etc. I see almost nothing like this about EV's. I don't think many people even know what really powers them.
Just like with a gasoline or diesel vehicle that fuel is only part of the equation. Just like with the ICE vehicles. If enough people were into figuring how to, for lack of better term or terms (as an example), port the heads and install a race cam in an EV, maybe something much better with less battery issues could be figured out.
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There's tons of discussion. At least on the Kia side of things. Weber also tore down a GT motor in depth.

https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000084233

 
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Electric motors - the driving force for an EV - have been around longer than an ICE, are used far more heavily in the industrial world, and are far more optimized than anyone is going to be able to do in their garage.

If you want to go faster just open the restrictions on max voltage or current - but you will burn your motor out far more quickly - maybe right away depending on how much.
 
Many motors have a Service Factor, but that definition maybe old fashion. A Service Factor meant how strong the motor rating was and,,Cast iron motors were the best at one time and did not distort--ok, my knowledge of electric is dated,like back in the 80s and mostly factory based...also they were AV voltage, but we had a device that would make them run variable speeds, you could get 3400 rpm out of a 1750 rpm motor ,but the torque was very low, really no need for 3400 rpm on head pulleys....lol ( worked in a foundry back then).
 
An electric crate engine is available from GM aimed at ICE vehicles. Knowing the GM crate motor concept, they will be increasing the power available with time.

965D66B1-E5CA-4A41-BE6A-B0C06F533756.png
 
Nobody these days is porting heads or putting on bigger carbs; those are still valid for ol' skool cool engines (I love them, BTW). Improving today's ICEs power output has been about "tuning" to improve performance basically by expanding parameters past OE limits. And with that comes risks to reliability and safety. (Altering timing; most boost; etc). To get these improvements, you swap intercoolers and injectors and alter injection mapping.

I would assume one could "tune" an EV to push more power, but at a significant and possibly dangerous cost. We've already seen how many EVs are maxed out for their equipment; they nearly overheat some of their components at OE limits.

Instead of swapping cams, heads or even engines, the "future" of hot-rodding EVs would be swapping in more powerful electric motors, thicker gauge power cables and control circuitry. Bigger batteries don't get you more power; they get you more run time. To get significantly more power (in a very simplistic explanation) you have to up the voltage and/or amps; that means everything in the system would need to be upgraded all at once; a complete makeover.

And for what? Both ICE and EV powered cars are pushing the adhesion limits of tires. Right now (and this has been true for a while), the weakest link in the chain in terms of acceleration is traction. Every powerful ICE made in the last 20 years has some form of traction control. In the last decade, most of them have launch control. Why? More power is available than traction can afford. Making a more powerful EV won't make it go any faster than an ICE, because "power" isn't the problem; traction is.
 
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CourierDriver said:
Many motors have a Service Factor, but that definition maybe old fashion. A Service Factor meant how strong the motor rating was and,,Cast iron motors were the best at one time and did not distort--ok, my knowledge of electric is dated,like back in the 80s and mostly factory based...also they were AV voltage, but we had a device that would make them run variable speeds, you could get 3400 rpm out of a 1750 rpm motor ,but the torque was very low, really no need for 3400 rpm on head pulleys....lol ( worked in a foundry back then).
Click to expand...
With three phase, or at least two of the three phases, AC motors can use Variable Frequency Drives to change speed on demand.
 
dnewton3 said:
Nobody these days is porting heads or putting on bigger carbs; those are still valid for ol' skool cool engines (I love them, BTW). Improving today's ICEs power output has been about "tuning" to improve performance basically by expanding parameters past OE limits. And with that comes risks to reliability and safety. (Altering timing; most boost; etc). To get these improvements, you swap intercoolers and injectors and alter injection mapping.

I would assume one could "tune" an EV to push more power, but at a significant and possibly dangerous cost. We've already seen how many EVs are maxed out for their equipment; they nearly overheat some of their components at OE limits.

Instead of swapping cams, heads or even engines, the "future" of hot-rodding EVs would be swapping in more powerful electric motors, thicker gauge power cables and control circuitry. Bigger batteries don't get you more power; they get you more run time. To get significantly more power (in a very simplistic explanation) you have to up the voltage and/or amps; that means everything in the system would need to be upgraded all at once; a complete makeover.

And for what? Both ICE and EV powered cars are pushing the adhesion limits of tires. Right now (and this has been true for a while), the weakest link in the chain in terms of acceleration is traction. Every powerful ICE made in the last 20 years has some form of traction control. In the last decade, most of them have launch control. Why? More power is available than traction can afford. Making a more powerful EV won't make it go any faster than an ICE, because "power" isn't the problem; traction is.
Click to expand...
https://ingenext.ca/products/ghost-upgrade
 
About the only thing I could think of that an enthusiast might do at home to make an EV faster is, put lower resistance wiring between the battery and the motor.
 
In the Tesla world, there are tire/wheel/suspension mods; the cars are pretty quick as it is. My guess is programming will continue to be the tuner.
 
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Its requires changing your mindset about what tinkering means. An Ev enthusiasts can do a lot of work, with just a computer and the right pieces of software. The oil soaked sleeves will transition into cheetos dust filed fingertips. The non tech stuff, like aero, wheels and tires, bushings,suspension etcs still require a wrench to turn off course

at the end of the day, both old and new will end up working towards more performance.
 
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Motor is
SC Maintenance said:
Electric motors - the driving force for an EV
Click to expand...
Ah yeah, but what is the real driving force for an electric motor.
Ponder this, why does a very small starter motor take 45 amps to run it unloaded, yet larger HP motors will idle at less amperage?
This points to a huge problem with motors. Also what happens to any CEMF that is produced?
Sure lots of info like the Weber video but not delving into the real nitty gritty.
 
Exhaustgases said:
Motor is

Ah yeah, but what is the real driving force for an electric motor.
Ponder this, why does a very small starter motor take 45 amps to run it unloaded, yet larger HP motors will idle at less amperage?
This points to a huge problem with motors. Also what happens to any CEMF that is produced?
Sure lots of info like the Weber video but not delving into the real nitty gritty.
Click to expand...
Your starter is a rudimentary DC motor. The armature current in a DC motor is absolute highest at the point it just starts moving. So max load and max current on a starter are at the same point - when it starts to turn over the engine. It also has to be cheap, and it isn't used very often, or for very long comparatively to a drive motor. Its optimized for this one task, not to run unloaded. Your not comparing apples and oranges. Your comparing apples to bunny rabbits.

The drive motor on a EV is typically AC at this point, but some were DC, and either way the motor can be optimized for max rpm, max torque, duty cycle, efficiency and a host of other things. You could possibly tinker with the inverter / frequency curves, or possibly push the motor beyond what the OEM typically allows - which potentially will shorten its life but you may not care. Or maybe the motor can handle it, but the battery can't - or whatever. My point is that the motors and drives can not be manipulated away from their original design attributes unless you have the ability to rewind a motor and reconfigure the inverter/frequency drive in your garage, unlike an ICE, where I can pull a head, put a polish wheel on a die grinder, and manipulate the power curve completely.
 
This starter was run out of the car by itself unloaded and pulls 45 amps, running amps not starting amps. There is a good reason for that, I know why do you? Under load while starting the engine it would be a good deal more amps.
And like I said it points to a huge problem with motor designs. What happens with all motors as far as wasted CEMF?

This is just about motors not about fancy controllers or such.
 
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I learned a small amount like 20 years ago in a school project building hybrid.

Industrial motors have been around and well understood. Power electronics driving these motors were around and have constantly improved to handle higher voltage and current, so they are now more efficient than before. Battery management is where the challenges are, in the trade off between cost, durability, weight, charge and discharge speed, capacity, etc.

The rest of the car is easier to build. You don't need as much cooling and braking, but your vehicle weight increase quite a bit.

I don't think people can modify EV much until things are better understood and parts / designs commoditized. The most hot rodders can do right now would probably be playing with the cooling systems, or swap the whole power train from one car to another, reducing range but gain torque.
 
Does anyone know why this small, yes in good condition, starter motor takes 45 amps to run, all by itself not cranking on an engine?
If you understand this you will question everything about motors.
 
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