Something I noticed, shallow sipes on General RT43

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I'll be buying new tires for my Nissan Frontier in the coming year or so, and I'm generally interested in tires, so I've been researching different models.

A lot of people talk about the General RT43 here and mostly have positive things to say. A Tire Rack test showed it having pretty good winter performance (although it was below the Hankook H727 in that respect).

I studied one in person at my local Walmart and I noticed the sipes are pretty shallow. I know that's common on some tires, but it makes me wonder how the winter performance will hold up on the RT43 over time?

I'll be interested to see owners update their reviews after they get significant miles on these tires.


Here's a look at the second rib, looking at it from the outside edge. You can see the sipes aren't cut very deeply into the tread.
RT431_zps8bb54d76.jpg


Here's the second rib, looking at it from the inside edge.
RT434_zps240358f4.jpg


This shows the center rib, and these go all the way to the bottom of the tread blocks. But you might consider these voids between tread blocks rather than sipes.
RT432_zps33f893c5.jpg


This is the outside rib of the tire. Again, the sipes don't seem very deep.
RT433_zps32755da4.jpg


For comparison, here is a Michelin Defender. You can see the sipes seem to go all the way to the bottom of the tread blocks.
RT435_zpsbe1abdb5.jpg


Here's a Hankook H727. I took this photo when the tires were new. I no longer have the car to look at them. If you look closely you'll see the center rib and the outside ribs seem to have sipes that go all the way to the bottom of the block. The second rib from the outside seems to have sipes that don't go all the way to the bottom of the tread blocks.
IMG_7513-1000.jpg
 
That is something I've noticed with many tires as well. On tires where the sipe, when new, doesn't look like it goes all the way through the treablock, there still is usually a half sipe in the middle of the block that is full depth. Even many winter tires are like that. I don't know if the Michelin Defenders are like that, but the Destiny and X Radials I have on 3 cars are like that. Here is an example of a used Michelin Destiny where the sipe is full depth, but once it wears about 4/32, all of the side to side sipe is gone but the center part remains.

$_12.JPG
 
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Originally Posted By: Drew99GT
Here is a used H727 where it's full depth side to side only on the outside rib.

$_12.JPG



I had wondered about that, but I didn't really have a way of measuring the center of the sipe while I was looking at the tire in the store.

However, on the H727, you can see by looking at my original pic that the sipes on the second ribs obviously don't cut all the way down, which is confirmed by your pic.

The sipes on the center rib (minus that little piece right in the middle) and the outside ribs can be seen on the new tire to go all the way to bottom of the tread block, which is also confirmed by your pic.

So in the case of the H727, looking at the new tire does tell you the full depth of the sipes, because it's clear by looking at the tread blocks.
 
Yes, the sipes on the RT43 don't go to the edge of the tread blocks. I would love for anyone with the RT43s who have a significant number of miles on them if they could post a picture of the tread to see how it looks as it wears.
 
Originally Posted By: Miller88
I bet that would decrease performance in the snow and ice a bit.

Nothing a utility knife can't fix.

I'm not sure it decreases winter performance. It's probably meant to make the tread block less "squirmy", but still provide sipes when there's adequate tread for winter driving. When it gets down to that point, it's probably not appropriate for winter driving conditions.

The one thing I have noticed about some newer tires are these ridges in the channels. I think they may be designed to lock in snow.

Michelin-Pilot-Sport-All-Season-3-Tread-Detail-4.jpg
 
Many of the sipes in these tires are NOT full depth. Once you get to about half tread... poof! They disappear.

The Destination LE2 is horrible for this. Most of the sipes disappear, and they're literally bald by the time they're at 6/32nds.
 
Those cool looking diagonal channels are going to get worse and worse as they wear.

Eventually you'll have something that's mostly circumferential channels like something that belongs on a bread truck.
 
my nokian WR g3 sipes don't go all the way down either at the edges of the tread blocks. Neither did my Hakapeliitta RSI.

the "D" version, the sipes don't even reach the edges of the tread blocks.
 
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I've noticed this on various tires as well. I would imagine not siping the full depth of the tread improves the stability/handling of the tire.
 
This was a very good catch my friend!

I recently bought the RT43's and also noticed this after(of course) the installation!
smirk.gif
But, we'll certainly see as time rolls on as these sipes will be useful for winter traction.
 
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It is pretty common for sipes not to be full depth AND for individual sipes to be varying depths across their length. I've always assumed this was done for handling and wear purposes. I also assume this is done to prevent chunkouts due to gravel roads.

I don't know of any tire manufacturer who doesn't do this.
 
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I found ebay to be a good source for pictures of worn tires, so I was able to dig up some pics of worn RT43 tires.

Long story short, by 7/32nds, they've lost much of the siping in the middle 3 ribs, but kept most of the siping on the outside ribs.

According to various ebay sellers, here are what the tires will look like at these measurements:

11/32nds
RT431132nds-1200_zpsfc15328a.jpg



8/32nds

RT43832nds_zpsd522c5f8.jpg



7/32nds
RT43732nds-1200_zpsb96ff2f2.jpg
 
Interesting observation, but must not matter much:

(assuming the TR surveys mean something:)
In the TR survey for the grand touring category the H/V rated RT43 is overall #4, but scores HIGHER THAN ALL 3 TIRES above it for light and deep snow and ice performance...

I am seriously considering this as the next tire for the Beater Elantra...

SIDE NOTE:
It's #1 in STANDARD touring category and has even better snow/ice ratings...
Why does my Elantra NEED H rated, per TR?? I mean i drive that car to to work where max speed it reaches is probably 60 mph. Can I not just get T rated ?
Will the installer refuse to install them?

 
Originally Posted By: 97tbird
Interesting observation, but must not matter much:

(assuming the TR surveys mean something:)
In the TR survey for the grand touring category the H/V rated RT43 is overall #4, but scores HIGHER THAN ALL 3 TIRES above it, for light and deep snow and ice performance...

I am seriosuly considering this as the next tire for the Beater Elantra...






The T-rated actually ranks better than it H or V rated siblings as well:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/surveyresults/surveydisplay.jsp?type=ST

One thing IMO to keep in mind though is the relative low number of miles reported on the RT43s compared to the other 3 tires in the screenshot, and that this winter will be the second winter I believe since these tires were new. In other words, many of the snow reviews from last year were likely on brand new tires... I'm curious to see how they do in their second winters and how these reviews change.

I'm not by any means bashing the RT43s of the TireRack surveys, I bought Pirelli P4s and Kumho KR21s largely based on the TR surveys at the time, hated the KR21s and love the P4s... and I have 2 sets of RT43s sitting in my garage for my Saturn and my parents Cobalt, originally bought with the intention of putting on before winter before I decided to get winter tires, largely because of the snow reviews.
 
A couple of thoughts on Tire Rack surveys:

1) Like all surveys, when a consumer is asked about a product - and the various aspects about that product - he tends to grade EVERYTHING about that product according to how well or how poorly he likes it. I call this the "Halo Effect". I've seen it many many times and I think the Tire Rack surveys are no exception.

So I would take the individual ratings of performance with a grain of salt. They are likely over or understated.

2) Be aware that Tire Racks' surveys are volunteer - that is, the survey is filled with opinions from folks to WANT to do the survey. I think this tends to result in more bad ratings than good ratings as people who dislike a product are more likely to fill out the survey.

3) Many people have initially good impressions of a product that sours later, so I think newly introduced products do better than older products.

4) Then there is the issue of rating spiking - artificially raising the ratings by writing good reviews. Luckily, I don't think that happens much with tires - and i think if you read the comments, you can tell when this has been done. I hope Tire Rack has a way of dealing with that.
 
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