Someone explain this experience to me please!!

[cdherman]

My 3.3l dodge V6 has about 80k miles.

Of late, its been burning a quart of oil every 1800-2000 miles and when the engine is good and hot, I can hear a tapping at low rpm. I have been told that "tap tap tap" is lifters, but I am no engine guru. It sure weren't there orginally.

The oil gets changed regularly -- I tend to run what is cheap. But I had the bright idea that I would run some Mobil 1 extended performance oil -- the stuff touted to run 15k miles -- and just change the filter ever 3k and keep it topped.

So with the M1, the oil use was about the same, maybe a little more. And the tapping was unchanged at first, but seemed to be getting worse, after about 7k of M1.

Then, after a 5 day vacation, I restarted the engine and the tapping was horrible, persisted even at higher rpm for perhaps 30 seconds. The oil was a little low, so I topped it. But then I started to mistrust my M1 experiment.

I went and switched back to Dino. Tapping went back to before, only present when the engine is hot. Clearly less than with M1 extended. Was using 10w30 both times.

What do you think?

Was the M1 so "slick" that it was not lubing the lifters? Did it drain back out of the filter?

Maybe I'm just crazy.....

Your thoughts please!!

OH, bonus question -- what do you think about 15w40 Delvac 1300 HD diesel oil in a rattleing V6? Think it would extend my engine life?

 

[oilboy123]

Was it burning a qt at 1800-2000 with the cheap oil? Might want to run auto-rx to ensure that engine has no deposits in the lifters or rings.

Run it and when finished try syn oil again and see if the problem is still there. Maybe Amsoil or other brand that is highly rated.

I can't see how you would need or want a x-40 wt oil in this engine. Going to this wt would be a band aid in IMO. Is it possible the oil filter was defective? That seems like a big change in noise etc for just a syn vs dino change?

Good luck

 

[pastmaster]

What brand of oil filters were you using? FRAM has a bad name around here for causing things like your tapping noise, but that would usually occur at start up.

You may want to try Delvac 15w40 or a HDEO, but your engine may feel sluggish and lose a few mpg, or not. May stop the tapping and the extra detergents clean some of the deposits, in time.

Have you tried some MMO, Marvel Mystery Oil? It's cheap and won't hurt anything.

 

[Triple_Se7en]

What is "changed regularly" in numbers??
What 'cheap" oil were you using?

Odds are, your cheap oil caught up to you with this engine & lifter design. The M-1 probably loosened some gunk up inside your engine - creating your lifer woes. Get another opinion on the sound. If agreed, flush the engine with an OCI of Rislone - then Engine Flush, then change the lifters & start using a higher quality conventional oil in 5w30 like Havoline. or... go the more expensive Auto-Rx route.

Alot of older engines experience problems like this when switching to synthetics. That's why the engine should be cleaned with something like Auto-Rx before switching to synthetics in older engines.

You had a slight problem before the synthetic. Then the synthetic - although better for your engine, made matters worse by moving gunk around.

 

[road_rascal]

If the tapping continues, I would suspect that it is not oil related. You may want to check out this site:

 

[i]

I dunno folks. I've been getting a very bad feeling about automotive M1 over the past few years. M1 engineers don't know everything, and are subject to orders from above (Marketing & Finance depts). Remember the M1 airplane oil debacle a few years back? M1 destroyed quite a few aircraft engines before the lawsuit and their subsequent exit from that market.

 

[Oldmoparguy1]

i, Any M1 you may want to get rid of, just send it to me. I won't even charge you to take it off your hands. I've only got 102 quarts, can never have too much M1.

The Aircraft oil problem was about dealing with the large amount of TEL in aviation fuel. Not a problem with autos.

 

[i]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oldmoparguy1:
i, Any M1 you may want to get rid of, just send it to me. I won't even charge you to take it off your hands. I've only got 102 quarts, can never have too much M1.

The Aircraft oil problem was about dealing with the large amount of TEL in aviation fuel. Not a problem with autos.

---

Agreed, I know why the avation oil failed, but the point I was trying to make (that I failed to explain properly), is that that problem should have shown up if they had done enough testing before releasing the product. My additional point then, is that I don't trust Mobil to do adequate testing whenever they tweak the formulationm -- especially since the ExMo merger. Who knows what great engineers got fired, and what weird bunch of ZERO real world experience consultant/idiots came in and changed everything during the merger. Maybe I used to work for a high$ consulting firm and know a bit about the rediculous package of ** most of it really is -- but I prefer some degree of anonymity on the net.

 

[Gary Allan]

I say that you heard more tapping with M1 over your conventional just due to the broader VI of M1. Dino produced tap when warm (thin) ..M1 was thinner sooner. Sounds simple enough to me.

Without used oil analysis, you won't know if there is any shearing/fuel dilution issues that made it get worse as the OCI advanced to 7k.

I'll assume that you never went anywhere near 7k on the cheaper conventional to see if any like effect ever occured.

My recommendation would naturally include a used oil analysis. If you're reluctant to do so, I'd just up the visc just a notch and see if this alters the condition to the better side. This will suggest that the apparent symptoms of the underlying cause are due to viscosity. You then just need to determine why spec'd viscosity appears to produce this symptom.

 

[Oldmoparguy1]

When I was flying, I read a bunch of stuff about the M1 problems. If I remember correctly, not everyone had problems. I don't recall the details now though. Maybe something like we here are seeing now. We always used Aero Shell and never had those kind of problems.

Anyway, cdherman has a problem. My guess is that it isn't directly related to M1.

 

[BlazerLT]

Replace your PCV valve and make sure you add what the owner's manual states is as the correct amount for that truck.

DON'T GO BY THE DIPSTICK!

My truck if filled to the full level on the dipstick will be close to a quart over-filled and the valvetrain will tap due to the oil level being too high and the crank slapping the oil, adding air to the oil system which will cause air in the lifters and therefore the tap you are hearing.

 

[cdherman]

1) 97 Dodge Caravan
2) Always changed oil between 2000 and 4000 miles, depending on driving conditions.
3)"cheap oil" was always correct rating, sometimes Supertech from Walmart. Certainly not "dollar store" junk. Inexpensive oil would be a better characterization.
4) Filters were NOT Fram when avoidable -- usually Baldwin or Motorcraft. That means they were whomever motorcraft had subcontracted. But I trust motorcraft over Fram.
5) Tapping started before the M1, got worse with the M1, and now is somewhat better after going back to Walmart 10w30.

Thanks for input so far.

I have appt scheduled with a shop that seems reliable -- will see what they make of the tapping. I had been just assuming that it was a lifter tapping and it would tap for a long time before it dies. There is a post over at Allpar that describes a 3.3 with taping that turned out to have just crud on the oil intake screen in the sump. That was causing low oil pressure and tapping. If my tapping could be remedied, sure would make me feel better.

 

[Norm Olt]

Please SEARCH this site for either Conoco or Phillips TropArtic vis-a-vis the differences between "cheap" oils

and "dollar store junk"

...

Cheers!

 

[Rickey]

cdherman; Not very scientific but how much varnish is showing on the dipstick? Can you see inside the oil filler opening enough to detect any varnish or sludge? My guess is that there is some varnish build up in the internal parts of the lifters causing one or more to not pump up properly (from internal leakage) when the oil thins out at normal operating temperature. Autorx or a solvent based cleaner may help remove some of the varnish. If you go the solvent route frequent oil filter changes are reccomended because of the amount of crud that may be released into the oil. And I think the Delvac won't do any harm and will probably clean a little better than what you were using maybe with the exception of the Mobil 1. The thickness of the Delvac should also help with the tap. If you're brave try this: put on a new oil filter, don't worry about new oil you will dump the oil after this but be sure the oil is above the add mark. After warming the engine shut it off and add one can of Berrymans B12 Chemtool to the oil. Crank the engine and IDLE it for 15 minutes or so, it may tap even worse at first as the Berrymans will thin out the oil. If this does result in effective cleaning you may notice the tapping decreasing as it is idled. Drain the oil and install new oil and filter. I have personally done this to an old chevy inline 6 with good results, it also had sticky lifters. But bear in mind this proceedure is considered by most as "radical". Good luck Rickey.

 

[Gary Allan]

I keep seeing a ton of reasons why he hears ticking and nothing that explains why M1 produced more ticking then dino.

This was the thrust of his post, wasn't it

Otherwise, after you get to that point, then you can perhaps determine if he needs a remedy for it.

I'm sorry ..(there is a confused smile on my face here) ..but sometimes I feel like I just entered The Twilight Zone

 

[Lazy JW]

quote:

---

...OH, bonus question -- what do you think about 15w40 Delvac 1300 HD diesel oil in a rattleing V6? Think it would extend my engine life? [/QB]

---

My guess is that it will quiet your noisy V6 a bit. I'm with Gary Allan on this one, thinner oil is aggravating the ticking.

BTW, are you the cdherman on www.fordsix.com?
Joe

 

[Oldmoparguy1]

quote:

---

Originally posted by cdherman:
My 3.3l dodge V6 has about 80k miles.

Of late, its been burning a quart of oil every 1800-2000 miles and when the engine is good and hot, I can hear a tapping at low rpm. I have been told that "tap tap tap" is lifters, but I am no engine guru. It sure weren't there orginally.

The oil gets changed regularly -- I tend to run what is cheap. But I had the bright idea that I would run some Mobil 1 extended performance oil -- the stuff touted to run 15k miles -- and just change the filter ever 3k and keep it topped.

So with the Mobil 1, the oil use was about the same, maybe a little more. And the tapping was unchanged at first, but seemed to be getting worse, after about 7k of Mobil 1.

Then, after a 5 day vacation, I restarted the engine and the tapping was horrible, persisted even at higher rpm for perhaps 30 seconds. The oil was a little low, so I topped it. But then I started to mistrust my Mobil 1 experiment.

I went and switched back to Dino. Tapping went back to before, only present when the engine is hot. Clearly less than with Mobil 1 extended. Was using 10w30 both times.

What do you think?

Was the Mobil 1 so "slick" that it was not lubing the lifters? Did it drain back out of the filter?

Maybe I'm just crazy.....

Your thoughts please!!

OH, bonus question -- what do you think about 15w40 Delvac 1300 HD diesel oil in a rattleing V6? Think it would extend my engine life?

---

Need to know more info. What car/van do you have?
What year? What is the maintenance history? What oil filter are you using?

I have 2 Dodge GC's. 2000 has 80K miles, 6100 miles into an Mobil 1 10W30 oil change. No ticks, clicks, leaks and no usage. 94 GC has 202K miles. 2300 miles into a Super Tech 10W40 oil change. No ticks, clicks, leaks. A little over 1 QT. usage.

 

[tamu_man]

Ditto on extra noise w/ Fram filters. I have personal experience and will never use one again. As far as M1, my mother's trio of Town and ****rys always used synthetic, and never made one weird noise. Instead they just blew transmissions.

I'm not a big fan of domestic minivan's. Most midsize SUV's give you simular fuel economy and the Explorer and Durango are good products with third row seating. SUV's also have good rebates right now or can be practically stolen off of most lots when used.

 

[GoldenRod]

Medicine for 3.3L V6:

4 quarts of high quality conventional motor oil, along with 1 quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. Drive for 3000 miles. Then change back to 5 quarts of high quality Havoline and Wix filter.

 

[cdherman]

Hey Lazy JW -- yep, I'm the same cdherman as fordsix.com My 1965 240 inline 6 runs like a champ!

I am going to see what the local shop has to say about the tapping. Perhaps I will try some thicker oil and if that stops it, then great. If that doesn't do the trick, then perhaps the marvel mystery or one of the other "flushes" that get recomended.

I have been reading more about viscosities -- there are a number of assertions that synthetic oils are formuated towards the "low end" of the viscosity ranges, whereas dino tends to be thicker. Such that conventional 10w30 is thicker than 10w30 synth. That could explain my M1 exterience, partially at least.