Oils that use sodium as an additive is the sodium for anti wear or is it used as a detergent?
Sodium additive?
- Thread starter Camprunner
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Originally Posted By: Camprunner
Oils that use sodium as an additive is the sodium for anti wear or is it used as a detergent?
The sodium is neither. It is the rest of the organometallic compound that is usually a detergent.
Oils that use sodium as an additive is the sodium for anti wear or is it used as a detergent?
The sodium is neither. It is the rest of the organometallic compound that is usually a detergent.
This is all I got.....HaHa
Sodium is amongst the alkali metals group. They are all very simular in properties, they are shiny and react to temperatures and pressures. If a reaction occurs, they lose the ability to store/ hold electrons creating a positive charge. Sodium has excellent electrical conductivity and ability to be a heat transfer agent.
Sodium can be an additive in oil. Components such as Engines require to be lubricated in order to prolong their life. One of the most critical properties of an oil is its ability to suspend undesirable products from thermal and oxidative degradation. Detergents and Dispersants play a key role in keeping things in suspension. Detergents are metal salts of organic acids in the form of carbonate. Detergents contain reserve base that is designed to neutralize acids from forming salts. Common metals that can be used to make neutral or basic detergents are sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium and barium. Calcium and magnesium are the most common additives found in oil due to its lower cost.
So reading that, it implies that the common additives of Calcium & Magnesium are used more commonly because they're cheaper to use than Sodium. Is one better than the other.....who knows ? Valvoline Syn Power uses heavy doses of Sodium in it's add pack & they seem to do fine as an oil. It's all about the chemistry & how it works together I guess.
Sodium is amongst the alkali metals group. They are all very simular in properties, they are shiny and react to temperatures and pressures. If a reaction occurs, they lose the ability to store/ hold electrons creating a positive charge. Sodium has excellent electrical conductivity and ability to be a heat transfer agent.
Sodium can be an additive in oil. Components such as Engines require to be lubricated in order to prolong their life. One of the most critical properties of an oil is its ability to suspend undesirable products from thermal and oxidative degradation. Detergents and Dispersants play a key role in keeping things in suspension. Detergents are metal salts of organic acids in the form of carbonate. Detergents contain reserve base that is designed to neutralize acids from forming salts. Common metals that can be used to make neutral or basic detergents are sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium and barium. Calcium and magnesium are the most common additives found in oil due to its lower cost.
So reading that, it implies that the common additives of Calcium & Magnesium are used more commonly because they're cheaper to use than Sodium. Is one better than the other.....who knows ? Valvoline Syn Power uses heavy doses of Sodium in it's add pack & they seem to do fine as an oil. It's all about the chemistry & how it works together I guess.
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Nice copy and paste from one of the first Google hits. Do you understand anything you pasted?
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
This is all I got.....HaHa
Sodium is amongst the alkali metals group. They are all very simular in properties, they are shiny and react to temperatures and pressures. If a reaction occurs, they lose the ability to store/ hold electrons creating a positive charge. Sodium has excellent electrical conductivity and ability to be a heat transfer agent.
Sodium can be an additive in oil. Components such as Engines require to be lubricated in order to prolong their life. One of the most critical properties of an oil is its ability to suspend undesirable products from thermal and oxidative degradation. Detergents and Dispersants play a key role in keeping things in suspension. Detergents are metal salts of organic acids in the form of carbonate. Detergents contain reserve base that is designed to neutralize acids from forming salts. Common metals that can be used to make neutral or basic detergents are sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium and barium. Calcium and magnesium are the most common additives found in oil due to its lower cost.
So reading that, it implies that the common additives of Calcium & Magnesium are used more commonly because they're cheaper to use than Sodium. Is one better than the other.....who knows ? Valvoline Syn Power uses heavy doses of Sodium in it's add pack & they seem to do fine as an oil. It's all about the chemistry & how it works together I guess.
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
This is all I got.....HaHa
Sodium is amongst the alkali metals group. They are all very simular in properties, they are shiny and react to temperatures and pressures. If a reaction occurs, they lose the ability to store/ hold electrons creating a positive charge. Sodium has excellent electrical conductivity and ability to be a heat transfer agent.
Sodium can be an additive in oil. Components such as Engines require to be lubricated in order to prolong their life. One of the most critical properties of an oil is its ability to suspend undesirable products from thermal and oxidative degradation. Detergents and Dispersants play a key role in keeping things in suspension. Detergents are metal salts of organic acids in the form of carbonate. Detergents contain reserve base that is designed to neutralize acids from forming salts. Common metals that can be used to make neutral or basic detergents are sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium and barium. Calcium and magnesium are the most common additives found in oil due to its lower cost.
So reading that, it implies that the common additives of Calcium & Magnesium are used more commonly because they're cheaper to use than Sodium. Is one better than the other.....who knows ? Valvoline Syn Power uses heavy doses of Sodium in it's add pack & they seem to do fine as an oil. It's all about the chemistry & how it works together I guess.
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Nice copy and paste from one of the first Google hits. Do you understand anything you pasted?
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
This is all I got.....HaHa
Sodium is amongst the alkali metals group. They are all very simular in properties, they are shiny and react to temperatures and pressures. If a reaction occurs, they lose the ability to store/ hold electrons creating a positive charge. Sodium has excellent electrical conductivity and ability to be a heat transfer agent.
Sodium can be an additive in oil. Components such as Engines require to be lubricated in order to prolong their life. One of the most critical properties of an oil is its ability to suspend undesirable products from thermal and oxidative degradation. Detergents and Dispersants play a key role in keeping things in suspension. Detergents are metal salts of organic acids in the form of carbonate. Detergents contain reserve base that is designed to neutralize acids from forming salts. Common metals that can be used to make neutral or basic detergents are sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium and barium. Calcium and magnesium are the most common additives found in oil due to its lower cost.
So reading that, it implies that the common additives of Calcium & Magnesium are used more commonly because they're cheaper to use than Sodium. Is one better than the other.....who knows ? Valvoline Syn Power uses heavy doses of Sodium in it's add pack & they seem to do fine as an oil. It's all about the chemistry & how it works together I guess.
The guy asked a question, so I was just trying to give him some info to read to see if it helped him out......But thanks for your concern bud. Maybe you can give all us "dumb [censored]" the correct answer since you're in the teaching mood.
Nice copy and paste from one of the first Google hits. Do you understand anything you pasted?
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
This is all I got.....HaHa
Sodium is amongst the alkali metals group. They are all very simular in properties, they are shiny and react to temperatures and pressures. If a reaction occurs, they lose the ability to store/ hold electrons creating a positive charge. Sodium has excellent electrical conductivity and ability to be a heat transfer agent.
Sodium can be an additive in oil. Components such as Engines require to be lubricated in order to prolong their life. One of the most critical properties of an oil is its ability to suspend undesirable products from thermal and oxidative degradation. Detergents and Dispersants play a key role in keeping things in suspension. Detergents are metal salts of organic acids in the form of carbonate. Detergents contain reserve base that is designed to neutralize acids from forming salts. Common metals that can be used to make neutral or basic detergents are sodium, potassium, magnesium, calcium and barium. Calcium and magnesium are the most common additives found in oil due to its lower cost.
So reading that, it implies that the common additives of Calcium & Magnesium are used more commonly because they're cheaper to use than Sodium. Is one better than the other.....who knows ? Valvoline Syn Power uses heavy doses of Sodium in it's add pack & they seem to do fine as an oil. It's all about the chemistry & how it works together I guess.
The guy asked a question, so I was just trying to give him some info to read to see if it helped him out......But thanks for your concern bud. Maybe you can give all us "dumb [censored]" the correct answer since you're in the teaching mood.
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
The guy asked a question, so I was just trying to give him some info to read to see if it helped him out......But thanks for your concern bud. Maybe you can give all us "dumb [censored]" the correct answer since you're in the teaching mood.
Yeah, you're another one of those posters that can't seem to respond without using profanity I see.
Sodium (or whatever the metallic ion is in the molecule) is what shows up on an ICP analysis but that's not the part of the molecule that is the detergent. It is the "metallic" in the organometallic molecule that I referred to in the other thread. The constant focus here on BITOG over seeing "sodium" in motor oils is relatively inconsequential to the makeup of the alkaryl sulfonic acids which are the actual detergents.
The guy asked a question, so I was just trying to give him some info to read to see if it helped him out......But thanks for your concern bud. Maybe you can give all us "dumb [censored]" the correct answer since you're in the teaching mood.
Yeah, you're another one of those posters that can't seem to respond without using profanity I see.
Sodium (or whatever the metallic ion is in the molecule) is what shows up on an ICP analysis but that's not the part of the molecule that is the detergent. It is the "metallic" in the organometallic molecule that I referred to in the other thread. The constant focus here on BITOG over seeing "sodium" in motor oils is relatively inconsequential to the makeup of the alkaryl sulfonic acids which are the actual detergents.
WHY?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Nice copy and paste from one of the first Google hits. Do you understand anything you pasted?
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
This is all I got.....HaHa Sodium is amongst the alkali metals group. .....
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
The guy asked a question, so I was just trying to give him some info to read to see if it helped him out......But thanks for your concern bud. Maybe you can give all us "dumb [censored]" the correct answer since you're in the teaching mood
Yeah, you're another one of those posters that can't seem to respond without using profanity I see.
[removed]
Sodium additives are used by a minority of oil formulators. Valvoline is famous for it, amongst a few others. See http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html for a comparison. Schaeffers is particularly unique in that they use a large amount of moly with their sodium-based additives. (Nobody combines sodium with boron, oddly.) We could use a pros/cons analysis of all these different approaches.
Nice copy and paste from one of the first Google hits. Do you understand anything you pasted?
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
This is all I got.....HaHa Sodium is amongst the alkali metals group. .....
Originally Posted By: kschachn
Originally Posted By: Fasttimez
The guy asked a question, so I was just trying to give him some info to read to see if it helped him out......But thanks for your concern bud. Maybe you can give all us "dumb [censored]" the correct answer since you're in the teaching mood
Yeah, you're another one of those posters that can't seem to respond without using profanity I see.
[removed]
Sodium additives are used by a minority of oil formulators. Valvoline is famous for it, amongst a few others. See http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html for a comparison. Schaeffers is particularly unique in that they use a large amount of moly with their sodium-based additives. (Nobody combines sodium with boron, oddly.) We could use a pros/cons analysis of all these different approaches.
Last edited by a moderator:
Originally Posted By: oil_film_movies
The usual kschachn style: troll and be insulting. Keep it up. You're like a rash that won't go away.
Sodium additives are used by a minority of oil formulators. Valvoline is famous for it, amongst a few others. See http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html for a comparison. Schaeffers is particularly unique in that they use a large amount of moly with their sodium-based additives. (Nobody combines sodium with boron, oddly.) We could use a pros/cons analysis of all these different approaches.
So you are claiming that it is the sodium ion that is the detergent, not the organic molecule to which it is attached?
The usual kschachn style: troll and be insulting. Keep it up. You're like a rash that won't go away.
Sodium additives are used by a minority of oil formulators. Valvoline is famous for it, amongst a few others. See http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html for a comparison. Schaeffers is particularly unique in that they use a large amount of moly with their sodium-based additives. (Nobody combines sodium with boron, oddly.) We could use a pros/cons analysis of all these different approaches.
So you are claiming that it is the sodium ion that is the detergent, not the organic molecule to which it is attached?
Originally Posted By: kschachn
So you are claiming that it is the sodium ion that is the detergent, not the organic molecule to which it is attached?
But you can't simply separate them and hold the Na+ up as some kind of redundant bystander. The detergent behaves detergenty because of the polarity induced in the molecule by having an ionic bond at one end. Therefore you have to have an cation of some kind, and the metal (usually*) that is used impacts on the overall performance of the detergent. In my experience Na-based detergents suffer from hydrolysis and wash-out with water present.
You're right that it isn't specifically the cation that does the detergency, but it impacts on the detergency and so it isn't without reason to question or ponder a specific cation's use. Of course you need the broader context, like what is the anion? Sulfonate? Salicylate? Stearate..?!
*there have been some ammonium-based ashless detergents, but they don't really have the stability for engine oil use.
So you are claiming that it is the sodium ion that is the detergent, not the organic molecule to which it is attached?
But you can't simply separate them and hold the Na+ up as some kind of redundant bystander. The detergent behaves detergenty because of the polarity induced in the molecule by having an ionic bond at one end. Therefore you have to have an cation of some kind, and the metal (usually*) that is used impacts on the overall performance of the detergent. In my experience Na-based detergents suffer from hydrolysis and wash-out with water present.
You're right that it isn't specifically the cation that does the detergency, but it impacts on the detergency and so it isn't without reason to question or ponder a specific cation's use. Of course you need the broader context, like what is the anion? Sulfonate? Salicylate? Stearate..?!
*there have been some ammonium-based ashless detergents, but they don't really have the stability for engine oil use.
So besides Valvoline, who else uses a heavy dose of sodium as an additive ?
Originally Posted By: weasley
But you can't simply separate them and hold the Na+ up as some kind of redundant bystander. The detergent behaves detergenty because of the polarity induced in the molecule by having an ionic bond at one end. Therefore you have to have an cation of some kind, and the metal (usually*) that is used impacts on the overall performance of the detergent. In my experience Na-based detergents suffer from hydrolysis and wash-out with water present.
You're right that it isn't specifically the cation that does the detergency, but it impacts on the detergency and so it isn't without reason to question or ponder a specific cation's use. Of course you need the broader context, like what is the anion? Sulfonate? Salicylate? Stearate..?!
OK so the metal ion is not a complete bystander, they never are in such molecules. But my point is that people on here go on about "sodium" as the detergent but the only reason they know sodium is in the oil is because of the ICP analysis. This completely ignores the organic portion of the molecule which as you say is the more significant component.
And I'm not the one separating them, everyone else is. To me it's just another instance illustrating the limited usefulness of a $30 Blackstone analysis and how they are misinterpreted by most everyone.
So I'll ask you then, other than solubility what does the sodium ion do in the organometallic complex? What does calcium do? Chemically I mean, in regards to the finished oil performance.
But you can't simply separate them and hold the Na+ up as some kind of redundant bystander. The detergent behaves detergenty because of the polarity induced in the molecule by having an ionic bond at one end. Therefore you have to have an cation of some kind, and the metal (usually*) that is used impacts on the overall performance of the detergent. In my experience Na-based detergents suffer from hydrolysis and wash-out with water present.
You're right that it isn't specifically the cation that does the detergency, but it impacts on the detergency and so it isn't without reason to question or ponder a specific cation's use. Of course you need the broader context, like what is the anion? Sulfonate? Salicylate? Stearate..?!
OK so the metal ion is not a complete bystander, they never are in such molecules. But my point is that people on here go on about "sodium" as the detergent but the only reason they know sodium is in the oil is because of the ICP analysis. This completely ignores the organic portion of the molecule which as you say is the more significant component.
And I'm not the one separating them, everyone else is. To me it's just another instance illustrating the limited usefulness of a $30 Blackstone analysis and how they are misinterpreted by most everyone.
So I'll ask you then, other than solubility what does the sodium ion do in the organometallic complex? What does calcium do? Chemically I mean, in regards to the finished oil performance.
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