You live in Alberta. I got nothin for that, lol!
Snow Tires Without Studs Are Worthless.
- Thread starter Ws6
- Start date
FWD, manual transmission, and a set of true studless winter tires (wife's xB has Conti Extreme WinterContacts, believe now discontinued) means ice & reasonable snow is not a problem IF you know how to drive in it. Get above 6-7 inches, then the xB becomes a mini snowplow & tries to beach itself, then it's time for the bigger vehicle with studs, or all terrains, and WEIGHT over the rear axle!
The studs are for ice. We don't have ice up here for the most part, we have salty roads. 
gathermewool
Site Donor 2023
Subie + nearly full boost in snow = woohoo. Just my anecdote.
Another: My Subie with OE tires got stuck next to my Civic with snow tires. The Civic was able to plow through the same level of snow without any issues.
Another: My Subie with OE tires got stuck next to my Civic with snow tires. The Civic was able to plow through the same level of snow without any issues.
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Wow you are old as those tires.... I recall being out of the academy and amazed when they slapped just 2 of those on the rear of all the radio cars and sent us out like that, on rare ice storms they would then also use chains again just on rear. fast forward 25 years and you can't do anything in a RWD patrol car that is using standard all seasons even if they are factory new Michelins or whatever they come on, they are so wide and low profile those cars just get stuck in an instant. However our department finally started buying legit FIrestone snows and installing them on all 4 wheels for these cars which are now not even really on the road they serve for admin and detectives but occasionally I get to take one out and even in our last storm of 12"+ it was better than the new SUV go as far as moving out from a stop or actually stopping on ice etc. This seems like a very subjective arguement with persons having different experiences in different climates and different vehicle types. I still bet on my POV being AWD with good all seasons (read better than factory equip) and rarely have any trouble.
Your sentiment is typical for those who do not use winter tires.
On my old BMW the difference between all-seasons and winter tires was remarkable, on my new Tiguan it is very noticeable but not quite as dramatic as on the BMW. My ECHO goes from treacherous to dangerous, but that is a very light vehicle which acts like a tree leaf on the pavement.
The "5 times a year you need them" can very easily be the difference between an insurance claim and being able to steer or stop. Or worse.
Absolutely. I have a friend who essentially sold his existing car because he thought "4-wheel drive" was what was needed here in Wisconsin winters. I tried to tell him that proper winter tires would make the difference he was looking for. He got a Toyota of some sort with all wheel drive, but with the stock all-seasons, my old BMW and winter tires would run circles around it. No comparison.
You're right that it's not a snow tire, but it isn't an all season either, its an "All Weather" tire.
I had a set of WRG1's and never liked them. I thought the tradeoff wasn't worth it--I had been using decent a/s then swapping to Hakka's for winter, and ultimately found it just didn't bridge the gap well enough for me.
We get a fair amount of snow and ice but I've never wanted to deal with the studs, most of winter is bare pavement. Or fluffy stuff. I tend to drive too aggressively when the pavement is bare to deal with the lower traction of studs. So my daily drivers will likely never get studded snows--actually my DD stays on a/s as I tend to take the much worse truck out when it snows (err, never did swap on snows this year, oops, been regretting that decision).
In the end I'm not sure there is one tire that can best handle each road condition in winter--optimizing for one means stealing from another.
We get a fair amount of snow and ice but I've never wanted to deal with the studs, most of winter is bare pavement. Or fluffy stuff. I tend to drive too aggressively when the pavement is bare to deal with the lower traction of studs. So my daily drivers will likely never get studded snows--actually my DD stays on a/s as I tend to take the much worse truck out when it snows (err, never did swap on snows this year, oops, been regretting that decision).
In the end I'm not sure there is one tire that can best handle each road condition in winter--optimizing for one means stealing from another.
My experience living in Colorado, Vermont and Canada says otherwise.
After seeing dozens of AWD SUVs crash with all season tires, while RWD and FWD equipped with winter tires easily handle the same conditions, it’s quite clear: traction matters.
No fancy AWD system can make up for a lack of traction. Winter tires have better traction in winter than all seasons. Period.
AWD can get you going in slippery conditions, but it can’t help you stop.
The inability to turn or stop is what causes the majority of crashes in the winter. Not being able to go is generally just a matter of embarrassment or frustration.
I had a RWD and a FWD Volvo wagon along with two 4WD trucks in Vermont. The wagons with winter tires were far better in the snow than the trucks with good all terrain tires. The difference was so dramatic, I put winter tires (Blizzaks) on the trucks.
After seeing dozens of AWD SUVs crash with all season tires, while RWD and FWD equipped with winter tires easily handle the same conditions, it’s quite clear: traction matters.
No fancy AWD system can make up for a lack of traction. Winter tires have better traction in winter than all seasons. Period.
AWD can get you going in slippery conditions, but it can’t help you stop.
The inability to turn or stop is what causes the majority of crashes in the winter. Not being able to go is generally just a matter of embarrassment or frustration.
I had a RWD and a FWD Volvo wagon along with two 4WD trucks in Vermont. The wagons with winter tires were far better in the snow than the trucks with good all terrain tires. The difference was so dramatic, I put winter tires (Blizzaks) on the trucks.
Well, I tried again on my 17* (27% grade, roughly) incline hill. We got another 4" or so of snow, total of about 7-8" of snow on that drive, and it's the dry slidy kind. I indeed did not make it up. Since I do not have actual snow tires, I do not know if they would, either.
I’ve driven a car with Blizzaks, after reading all the hype surrounding them I was so incredibly underwhelmed I’ll never buy a set. If I can get 90% of the performance of snow tires and just modify my driving for the 1.4% of the year that requires it, I’ll continue to do so. Never once have I been in a situation where I was unable to come to a complete stop or unable to steer my vehicle since I can adapt to different road conditions. But my road conditions are vastly different than yours or WS6’s. It’s mostly flat and very little to no ice for the melted off the roadway.
That mirrors my experience too. I ran the highly rated LTX MS2's on my truck in winter and didn't think much of them. Cheapo iPikes transformed its snow capability--and they're not evenly high rated.
This winter I decided to leave on the Dynapro ATM's and quite frankly I wish I had taken the time to install the snows. I'm not sure but it's possible that the LTX's were better on ice, I'll give them that; and neither seems cut out for snow at all.
I miss having a FWD with a manual trans, I've gotten by a time or two with bald a/s! Not recommended, but I was able to do quite a bit all the same, having full control.
This is a 17 degree incline, and that's as far as I made it. No real running start, just began level at the base and went at it. Then backed up about 30ft or so and went at it again. No dice. I walked the 2 miles round trip to my mail box (it was empty...) and back.
Dunno if snow tires woulda fixed that or not. Just walking up it and down it I was slipping while wearing boots rated for -40 or so with rubber grippy soles. The snow slid on itself, so I don't see how snow tires would have done any good.
Here is a nice review of A/S v. snow tires on a snowy mountain road in Colorado;
FWIW - I am "too far south" in Canada to legally run studs, they simply aren't permitted as they do too much road damage. I admit I'm scratching my head a little to figure out how "south central US" (not sure just where all that might be) has so much more demanding winter conditions than I see and concludes that non-studded tires are useless. In my area I do drive in a lot of brine and salted slush as opposed to true untreated ice and snow, and I often think it's too "warm" for Hakkas here.
Unlike most years, this Feb we've been getting "cold snow", where it's actually *well* below freezing when it snows and the snow is "dry". I had some real trouble with AWD and Hakka R2s on my street (but not the street one block over, closest access road, or my SO's neighbourhood 2 miles away) because of the exact combination and timing of salt application. It was fluffy white snow on a base layer of thick greasy stuff salted hours earlier. Almost zero ability to turn or stop - touch the brake pedal and ABS goes absolutely bonkers. Generally I've found this combination to be my nemesis in winter traction and studs wouldn't help a bit. It's caused by the regional tendancy to solve all problems with salt instead of plowing it aside and otherwise leaving it alone for a while. As soon as I left my street where the salt/plow timing and quantity was just a little different, even though it looked identical out the windshield, traction wasn't an issue. In areas where surfaces were near "virgin" (no salt and driven over between zero and a couple dozen times) I had tons of grip.
I guess I'm here to say non-studded tires are anything but "useless" and studs only help on glare ice, and most on warm, wet ice I believe. I suppose if that's all you see in "winter" driving, you could conclude that anything except studs was useless. The government considers my winters not severe enough to even allow studs as an option. I have to drive a couple of hours straight north before I get to an area that permits them. When purchasing studded tires or when pulled over or inspected, you have to show ID that you have a residence north of a particular line. I have definitely considered studded in the past, going against regs.
Unlike most years, this Feb we've been getting "cold snow", where it's actually *well* below freezing when it snows and the snow is "dry". I had some real trouble with AWD and Hakka R2s on my street (but not the street one block over, closest access road, or my SO's neighbourhood 2 miles away) because of the exact combination and timing of salt application. It was fluffy white snow on a base layer of thick greasy stuff salted hours earlier. Almost zero ability to turn or stop - touch the brake pedal and ABS goes absolutely bonkers. Generally I've found this combination to be my nemesis in winter traction and studs wouldn't help a bit. It's caused by the regional tendancy to solve all problems with salt instead of plowing it aside and otherwise leaving it alone for a while. As soon as I left my street where the salt/plow timing and quantity was just a little different, even though it looked identical out the windshield, traction wasn't an issue. In areas where surfaces were near "virgin" (no salt and driven over between zero and a couple dozen times) I had tons of grip.
I guess I'm here to say non-studded tires are anything but "useless" and studs only help on glare ice, and most on warm, wet ice I believe. I suppose if that's all you see in "winter" driving, you could conclude that anything except studs was useless. The government considers my winters not severe enough to even allow studs as an option. I have to drive a couple of hours straight north before I get to an area that permits them. When purchasing studded tires or when pulled over or inspected, you have to show ID that you have a residence north of a particular line. I have definitely considered studded in the past, going against regs.
I'd like to add, AWD and improper tyres is a good way to get you fast in to trouble... Even if you manage to get going with minimal fuss, it could lead you to come up to a turn too fast, and then you find out the car won't brake or steer.
We have 7-8" of snow on the ground right now and it's 18*F. It fell all last night to stack on top of yesterday's snow, which came down at around -10*F.
I dealt with the combo you had, the other week, with the same results you had.
This is a pano of my neighborhood. I had to hike up there to get the mail because my driveway as pictured with 7-8" of dry powder on it proved too much.
