Smokeless Muzzleloading............at Mach 3 and beyond

burbguy82

burbguy82

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This started in another thread, so I decided to start a new one.

Basically, I have a good friend that has developed load data for smokeless powder. Over the last 5 years, and 1000's of rounds, he has come up with safe loads, specifically for 209 primer type muzzle loaders. He also builds The Ultimate Muzzleloader, which is a beast.

He also holds a patent on a type of pre-packaged load which is kind of like the old recoiless rifle cartridges, but for 50 caliber ML.

Below is a link to some references. Let me know if there are any questions. The data is not free, but if you are wanting more out of your ML, and want a rust free barrel this is a great way.


burbguy82 said:
I have shot it several times, I call it "the destroyer". It shot through Ar500 sheet at 50 yards. I included a video in which he quotes 3000 fps, but that was really the low average in testing. I have been there at 3500 FPS, countless times. He does build them and sell them to customers. A close friend of mine. We shoot these all the time. I have a Tradition buckstalker I use smokeless, just so I dont have to clean it.

Not really, it is a pressure game, that is all. Shooting a gun is dangerous, not different than double charging a reload. Below, I am going to list a few references. If you are interested.





https://www.ebay.com/itm/1762999314...d=&campid=5338413729&toolid=10001&mpt=8094316

me shooting it:


If you are into muzzleloading, this info a data is excellent, and no more corrosive powder, or rusted barrels.
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burbguy82 said:
This started in another thread, so I decided to start a new one.

Basically, I have a good friend that has developed load data for smokeless powder. Over the last 5 years, and 1000's of rounds, he has come up with safe loads, specifically for 209 primer type muzzle loaders. He also builds The Ultimate Muzzleloader, which is a beast.

He also hold a patent on a type of pre-packaged load which is kind of like the old recoiless rifle cartridges, but for 50 caliber ML.

Below is a link to some references. Let me know if there are any questions. The data is not free, but if you are wanting more out of your ML, and want a rust free barrel this is a great way.
Click to expand...
Where can I find this load data?
I use several smokeless powders for shot shell reloading that are considered "slower burning shotgun powders" and seem like they could produce mild pressures in a muzzle loader.
 
wpod said:
Is the rifle is a moden bolt action design?
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The Ultimate is a modern bolt design with a removable breach plug, far better than the ML manufactured in the past. He makes them. Easy to remove and clean. He has a different and improved breach plug design that has been 100% reliable, unlike others. He makes the brake and disc.

The load data on ebay is for 209 type ML, like the Traditions Buckstalker, but can be used in others. He is not a member of the forum, but can relay specific questions I cannot answer to him and let you know.

The last video is me shooting the destroyer. At some point that day I think we made the mistake of shooting a piece of AR500. It went right through at 50 yards. Probably in a weak spot, but still, a beast. I have shot it more times than I can remember.

Most practically and economically, he developed load data for break action models, for the masses.
 
oil pan 4 said:
Where can I find this load data?
I use several smokeless powders for shot shell reloading that are considered "slower burning shotgun powders" and seem like they could produce mild pressures in a muzzle loader.
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In the post is a link for the DVD set he has developed. Here it is again. I think, with the Ultimate ML he builds he includes load data, since it is different animal of course.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1762999314...d=&campid=5338413729&toolid=10001&mpt=8094316
 
oil pan 4 said:
Yeah if you're hitting 3000fps you're probably seeing at least 40,000psi chamber pressure.
But if your maximum safe pressure limit is say 70,000psi and are not limited by case capacity, the sky is the limit.
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Correct. The myth that smokeless powder is unsafe in a ML is exactly that, a myth. It is all about pressure. He has collected the data, and has validated it to the hilt. To be honest, annoyingly safe and deliberate.
 
burbguy82 said:
Correct. The myth that smokeless powder is unsafe in a ML is exactly that, a myth. It is all about pressure. He has collected the data, and has validated it to the hilt. To be honest, annoyingly safe and deliberate.
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A few people blew up their guns and died dropping a black powder charge worth of fast pistol powder down into their guns. And that's all it takes for a myth to be borne.

It looks like the powders shown are slower rifle powders, typical rifle powders, fast rifle powders and magnum pistol powder.
 
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That's interesting but my Thompson center 54 Cal with conical bullets can penetrate the north side of a southbound elk at modest black powder velocities. Plus, my state does not allow optics on black powder rifles and I hardly ever see an animal outside of 100 yd anyway.
 
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oil pan 4 said:
Yeah it's only like double the power of a typical magnum hunting rifle. Or 3x to 4x the power of a typical hunting rifle.
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The wallop is really impressive- and the speed at which a cycle occurs insures hours of fun fore reaosbale money blowing a variety of things to bits.

Being somewhat familiar with ballistics I clicked to see if the mach 3 title was folderol but indeed this seems the real deal. Impressive, and intriguing I somehow never went down this road.

I never thought of rifles like this although my friend has two cannon a tiny 12 gauge one and a 1/8th scale unit that makes gown men laugh like kids when you take it to the range they are far from precision thats happening here.
 
wpod said:
The rifle is a moden bolt action design.
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No, you worded this different than before, I suppose there was an edit?

The bolt carries a primer module, the pressure is held by a custom breach plug. A highly modified design to Remington's Ultimate muzzle loader. It was unreliable, this one is not. The smokeless powder helps.
 
Low Pressure Smokeless Load Data for a muzzleloader: Demonstration DVDs now available

This load data is similar to that used by the Savage 10ML muzzleloader, but with lower pressures.

The following video demonstrates how the pressures were determined.

 
I’ve owned a Savage 10MLII for about 25 years now and have taken several deer with it. If I don’t get one during the ML season I just remove the primer and put it back into the safe, then use that charge to verify sight-in next year.

Not having to clean corrosive powder is a great convenience.
 
Elkins45 said:
I’ve owned a Savage 10MLII for about 25 years now and have taken several deer with it. If I don’t get one during the ML season I just remove the primer and put it back into the safe, then use that charge to verify sight-in next year.

Not having to clean corrosive powder is a great convenience.
Click to expand...

Even though Savage proved smokeless powder can be used safely in a muzzleloader over 20 years ago, the myth persists that any smokeless powder will blow up the barrel of any muzzleloader. Several people on YouTube have promoted this myth by filling a barrel with fast-burning pistol powder. They could blow up any shotgun barrel by doing the same thing, even though all modern shotgun shells use smokeless powder as the propellant.

You have proven the myth is wrong. Anyone who can accurately weigh the proper kind of smokeless powder can eliminate the corrosive chemicals found in Black Powder and the substitutes. The load data on these DVDs has pressures lower than what you can use in the Savage. Your barrel diameter is 1.055", while that of most modern inline rifles is about 1.000".
 
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Fresh painted target was at 300, notice the large dents. A few years ago, we made a boo boo and shot right through a pice of 1\4 ar500 at 50 yards.

600 yard target specaks for itself, the blue marking indicated the hits, the rest is spawl.
 
Mach3Muzzleloader said:
Even though Savage proved smokeless powder can be used safely in a muzzleloader over 20 years ago, the myth persists that any smokeless powder will blow up the barrel of any muzzleloader. Several people on YouTube have promoted this myth by filling a barrel with fast-burning pistol powder. They could blow up any shotgun barrel by doing the same thing, even though all modern shotgun shells use smokeless powder as the propellant.

You have proven the myth is wrong. Anyone who can accurately weigh the proper kind of smokeless powder can eliminate the corrosive chemicals found in Black Powder and the substitutes. The load data on these DVDs has pressures lower than what you can use in the Savage. Your barrel diameter is 1.055", while that of most modern inline rifles is about 1.000".
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Yeah I've got a 100+ year old double barrel shotgun that was definitely made and intended for blackpowder shells. I'm sure it's fired a lot of smokeless shells over the years.
 
oil pan 4 said:
Yeah I've got a 100+ year old double barrel shotgun that was definitely made and intended for blackpowder shells. I'm sure it's fired a lot of smokeless shells over the years.
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If it's got a barrel made with "damascus" steel or a welded seam on the barrels, then 100% do not fire it with smokeless. Corrosion may have gotten in between the layers and weakened it and there's no way to tell short of a multi-million $ lab setting or destructive testing what it's true condition is.

The strength of a modern Savage BP rifle is orders of magnitude different than an antique shotgun.
 
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