Small Particle MoS2 Settling Time

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Trav
I hope someone duplicates your test.

Hope no more. I''m testing three samples.

- The first sample was Mobil-1 5w-30 plus Molycote Fluid Concentrate, at the rate of 2 fl oz of MFC per 4.1 quarts of oil - 1:65.6. This is within the dosage recommendation printed on the package.

- The second sample was Mobil-1 5w-30 plus Liqui-Moly MoS2 Anti Friction, at the rate of 150ml L-M MoS2 per 4.2 quarts of oil ~ 4% concentration. This is within the dosage recommendation printed on the package.

- The third sample is Mobil-1 5w-30 by itself.

All samples were placed in sterile glass test tubes. The test tubes were shaken. The test tubes were then placed in an oven at 250 deg F for 1 hour. Then shaken again while hot. Finally, the tubes were allowed to cool, then sealed with a clean rubber stopper.

The motor oil has a consistent amber color. If I shine a bright white light through the oil, the color image projected onto a white sheet of paper is a consistent color.

Both oil-Mos2 samples are opaque, with the appearance of a 'very dark gray milkshake'. I tried shining various lights though the test tubes with little success. The brightest white light barely penetrates the liquid. If there is a decrease in opacity over time in the top part of the tube, that would suggest settling has occurred.

All three tubes are now sitting in a test tube rack, vertical position, on a top shelf in the garage at room temperature.

 

[demarpaint]

^^ I'm interested in your results. ^^ I have a feeling there will be some slight fallout, which will quickly go back into suspension with shaking of the tube. What we can't sample is the impact of repeated heating and cooling cycles, and the buildup of contaminants in the oil that operating an engine will cause.

 

[KCJeep]

No science here but I have MoS2 in my Jeep again. No complaints and once again it has made the Jeep quieter. Has been about 12k to 15k since I last had it in.

 

[Trav]

Dave i wish you had a true synthetic to test like i was using not a dino synthetic.
I have a feeling the PAO/Ester may have played some roll.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: demarpaint
^^ I'm interested in your results. ^^ I have a feeling there will be some slight fallout, which will quickly go back into suspension with shaking of the tube. What we can't sample is the impact of repeated heating and cooling cycles, and the buildup of contaminants in the oil that operating an engine will cause.

Slight fallout is vaguely what I am expecting. But that should be perfectly adequate, particularly if you put in plenty of MoS2 to start with. Consider 3 scenarios:

1) In an earlier message, I queried JHRZ2 if accumulating MoS2 in the sump was likely to be harmful. Suppose a worst case situation that all MoS2 settled into the sump. Clearly, there would be little benefit, but it is unclear if it would cause any problems. My thinking is it would drain out on the next oil change and be wasted, nothing more or less.

2) If the MoS2 stays in suspension, or gets 'stirred up' it should attach to metal surfaces, per the BITOG White Paper. If there is enough Moly in circulation, then all surfaces will be 'plated' and the excess will simply stay in suspension, to drain out on the next oil change. The MoS2 that remains in suspension will ultimamtely be wasted.

3) If the MoS2 stays in suspension and attaches to metal surfaces, but there is not enough MoS2 to 'plate' every metal surface, then some surfaces will simply remain unplated. The white paper mentions these as 'bald spots'. Of course, these 'bald spots' are still being lubricated by motor oil - no worse off than before the introduction of MoS2 into the system. Under this scenario, when you drain the oil, very little MoS2 will be wasted.

---

Yeah, it's hard to deal with the heating/cooling cycles. The tubes mixed a lot better when the oil was hot!

There was one other issue that concerned me: if there are volatile materials in the motor oil, when heated they might evaporate and pass through the PCV valve. So, the oil in your engine a week after an oil change might be a tab thicker than the oil you actually put in. This is probably not significant if using quality motor oil, but 'thicker oil' (for whatever reasons) should be more resistant to settling.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Yeah, it's hard to deal with the heating/cooling cycles. The tubes mixed a lot better when the oil was hot!


So to be sure: add mos2 only to a warm engine and drive for a while afterwards. Probably less wasted to the sump.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Nebroch
Originally Posted By: dave5358
Yeah, it's hard to deal with the heating/cooling cycles. The tubes mixed a lot better when the oil was hot!

So to be sure: add mos2 only to a warm engine and drive for a while afterwards. Probably less wasted to the sump.

I'm 1 for 2. With or without MoS2, I always drive a vehicle around a "very long block" - about 2-1/2 miles - after an oil change. When I get back, I check for leaks, etc. Then I make entries in the log book.

Finally I check the oil level and make any final additions. Even at 2-1/2 miles, the oil isn't very hot, but at least it is mixed.

 

[dave5358]

In a message above, I mentioned Molykote from VW in the blue tubes (Dow Corning/Alpha Molykote). I just had a friendly chat with Dave Kraycsir - Sr. Engineering Specialist at Dow Corning, who advises me that this Molykote product is available in the US under the name Dow Corning M Gear Oil Additive. Here's the spec sheet for Dow Corning M Gear Oil Additive

The MoS2 average particle size for this product is .5 microns.

This is just not a consumer product - not on eBay or Amazon - but it should be available through many industrial suppliers such as Motion Industries: ~$45 / quart delivered. That might seem pricey, but 1 quart should last a very long time given the low recommended dosages. Usage might be on the order of 16 oil-change applications assuming 2 fluid ounces per application (the blue VW tubes are 2 fluid ounces each), or much more if you reduced the application rate to 1 fluid ounce for 2nd and subsequent oil changes.

So you don't have to speak German to order Molykote from VW and you don't have to speak Portuguese to order Molykote from Brazil. At various times, I've done both. Ordering from Brazil is not too bad - prices are very reasonable in Carnival land - but the Brazilian postal service is the absolute pits.

 

[147_Grain]

Do we know how many ounces of pure MoS2 Lubro Moly uses in their 300ml can of LM2009?

 

[GregGA]

Originally Posted By: KCJeep
No science here but I have MoS2 in my Jeep again. No complaints and once again it has made the Jeep quieter. Has been about 12k to 15k since I last had it in.


Maybe this stuff is designed for "tractor engines". I've owned my Jeep XJ 4.0 since 1987. It is my baby, and has been overly maintained for its 130k miles. I added Liqui-moly 1000 miles ago. It has the quietest, smoothest idle it has ever had. You would not know it was a Jeep 4.0 if you were blind folded next to it. Science? Nope. But I know my JEEP like the back of my hand. LM made a difference.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: MolaKule
I think what Ed said was very telling.

Originally Posted By: Edward Kollin
We tried size distributions of less than 100nm to 1 micron. The larger particles settled out in low flow areas of the engines and the very small particles seemed to agglomerate into larger particles which settled out in low flow areas of the engines. We worked quite a bit on the dispersing of the primary particles with a wide variety of base oils and a great number of surfactants. Even at high loadings solid MoS2 did little. However, this work should be included as part of the prelude to the development of the oil soluble moly trimer (incredible additive) that we developed at Exxon and I got the opportunity to perform the initial engine testing.

Ed


and

Quote:
The Moly trimer provides better fuel economy retention and better wear protection than Moly DTC. It is three times the price of Moly DTC and is typically used at 50-100 ppm. I don't know yet which oils use it. I use it in specific racing applications and as a reactant to produce another additive.

Ed


The suspended or colloidal versions of powdered moly additives do settle out and conglomerate.

The soluble versions stay in solution, as would be expected.


So when you add a Moly additive, how do you know what are you getting, the colloidal version (suspended particles of powder) or the soluble version?

And how do you know how much should be added unless you have done extensive and expensive tests?




How about the mazda branded oil with moly? Some say its darker in color, could this be mos2? Would mazda have put their name on it without any testing?

 

[Trav]

Originally Posted By: spasm3
How about the mazda branded oil with moly

what kind of moly? MoS2?

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: spasm3
How about the mazda branded oil with moly

what kind of moly? MoS2?


I have no idea.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: spasm3
How about the mazda branded oil with moly

what kind of moly? MoS2?

I think that was the question. If it's dark gray or black in color, smart money is on MoS2.

 

[spasm3]

Originally Posted By: dave5358
Originally Posted By: Trav
Originally Posted By: spasm3
How about the mazda branded oil with moly

what kind of moly? MoS2?

I think that was the question. If it's dark gray or black in color, smart money is on MoS2.


Thats what i'm thinking, if its olive, dark colored it might be mos2.

 

[KCJeep]

Originally Posted By: GregGA
Originally Posted By: KCJeep
No science here but I have MoS2 in my Jeep again. No complaints and once again it has made the Jeep quieter. Has been about 12k to 15k since I last had it in.


Maybe this stuff is designed for "tractor engines". I've owned my Jeep XJ 4.0 since 1987. It is my baby, and has been overly maintained for its 130k miles. I added Liqui-moly 1000 miles ago. It has the quietest, smoothest idle it has ever had. You would not know it was a Jeep 4.0 if you were blind folded next to it. Science? Nope. But I know my JEEP like the back of my hand. LM made a difference.


Works well in them no doubt. I know you can't exactly equate noise to wear, but if I add MoS2 and the Jeep runs quieter, something is going on and I can't believe quieter is bad. I get a slight mpg gain also.

 

[Clevy]

Many people hold firm that a fully formulated motor oil doesn't needs additives and I cannot fault that logic in the least.
However when I add an 8 dollar can of mos2 I get better mileage in every single v8 engine and the additive more than pays for itself in fuel savings,which is why I buy it.
If there was no gain in some way that is tangible then no way would I waste a thin dime on the stuff.
For those of you guys using it share your experiences,both good and bad so a clear picture can be seen for anyone thinking of trying it.
For me Its a no brainer. Saves me gas.

 

[dave5358]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Many people hold firm that a fully formulated motor oil doesn't needs additives and I cannot fault that logic in the least.

I can fault that logic. The questions should be: does an additive provide a benefit? What are the risks and downside to using it? To assume a 'fully formulated motor oil doesn't need additives" is the same as saying "let big oil take care of me - they know best".

Oils are made to be marketplace competitive. Oil companies (and auto makers) do not exist for the benefit of consumers. Sometimes consumers do get a good product because of marketplace forces but just as often they get mediocre products served up with a big dose of advertising.

"This stuff turned my oil black."

 

[Mystic]

Well, there is a car company that is using high moly oil-Mazda. Something to think about.

Some of the oil companies were putting moly in their engine oils a while back. It was in chemical combination with the oil and would not just rain out of the oil.

I was very impressed myself with Schaeffer's oil supplement that had moly. The Schaeffer's oil was kind of green in color. I don't know if they even still sell that supplement but the engine in my car ran incredibly smooth.

 

[Nebroch]

Originally Posted By: Clevy
Many people hold firm that a fully formulated motor oil doesn't needs additives and I cannot fault that logic in the least.
However when I add an 8 dollar can of mos2 I get better mileage in every single v8 engine and the additive more than pays for itself in fuel savings,which is why I buy it.
If there was no gain in some way that is tangible then no way would I waste a thin dime on the stuff.


I think it's more about your engine than used oil if MoS² gives benefits or not. LM tells on it's moly oil flyer that MoS² generally works better in old and worn engines, as MoS² coating on their maybe out of spec friction surfaces makes oil perform better on them.