SM oils and reduced EP

Pennzoil motor oil
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Please know, I want to understand this situation clearly. It would be nice to have (can someone provide a link for me?) some form of list which describes the certifications of oils and what they mean.

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Be forwarned there isn't a simple answer. If you want to have a better grasp of the situation, you need to learn a lot more about the lubrication of various engines and how the requirements have changed over the years.

Here's a couple of places to start.

http://www.lubrizol.com/LubeTheory/default.asp

http://www.infineum.com/information/tables.html

There is also some good information to be had following the links on the home page here.
 
Cujet

HDEO Bike and race oils tend to contain more "ZDDP" than the "critical" SL level

The reduced ZDDP is an issue for flat tappets crowd

Delta cams
Comp Cams
EPWI engine part supplier
Amsoil (but see tech bulletin)
Redline oils
Castrol oils
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/productdetail.do?categoryId=9006583&contentId=7013363

Pennzoil
Spectro oils
American Engine Rebuilder's Association
General Motors
Moss Motors
Hot Rod Magazine
Power and Performance News
Hughes Engines
Motorcycle Cruiser
Motorcyclist
Royal Purple
Penrite
Joe Gibbs
http://www.joegibbsracingoil.com/datasheets/81106.php
http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

http://www.amsoil.com/dealer/techservicesbulletin/TSB_flat_tappet_and_camshaft_lube.pdf
Fuchs Titan GT1 Zinc free (flat tappets should not be an issue)

Typical replies from oil companies

Pennzoil has marketed, for a number of years, a "Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil" that would be suitable to use in older vehicles or high performance engines that incorporate high lift cams with high tension valve springs. The Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil is available in the SAE 25W-50, 50, and 60 weight. The product part number is 3623, 3589, and 3599 respectively. Given the part number, any retail outlet that carries Pennzoil products, can obtain this oil. This formulation contains nearly three times as much zinc as most commercially available API "SM" motor oils in the market. I would recommend using this formulation, for truly high performance engines, over the heavy -duty diesel engine oils because this oil has approximately 50% more zinc than most API "CI-4" quality diesel engine oils.

Best Regards,
Technical Service


The Red Line oils continue to offer very good
protection, we will not reduce those critical levels.

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.

The GTX Line has a zinc level of 0.075%.

As indicated on our product packaging, the current engine oil category API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible or ‘back serviceable’ and has been extensively tested. Valve train issues are not anticipated with the use of modern engine oil in older cars of OEM stock configuration. In fact, current SM/GF-4 engine oils are subjected to testing that is far more intensive than engine oils of previous API/ILSAC categories.

To clarify, in general, ZDDP levels have been reduced a small amount in the current category engine oils (API SM/ILSAC GF-4) in compliance with industry regulations that set maximum levels of Sulphur and Phosphorus, but are still at levels that provide ample engine protection.

BP
Anyhow, engines such as yours that use flat tappets could be sensitive to reduced levels of Phosphorous in oil formulations, it appears that 0.1% is about the cut off point, so oils for flat tappets should contain >.1%.

Phos has been steadily going down as the amount of ZDDP has been reduced to ensure compatibility with exhaust after treatment

From our range the following are higher than 0.1%

Castrol GTX Diesel 15w40 (CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL)
Castrol GTX High Mileage 20W-50 (SL,SM)
Castrol GTX 20W-50 (SL,SM)
Castrol HD 30 (SL,SM)
Castrol HD 40 (SL,SM)
Castrol Syntec Blend Truck 15w40 (CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL)(Semi-synthetic)
Castrol Tection Extra 15w40 (CI4Plus, CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,SL)
Castrol Hypuron S 15w40 (CI4Plus,CH4,CG4,SL)(Semi-synthetic)
Castrol Syntec 5W-40 (SL,CF)(Synthetic)
Castrol GO! 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil (SG)
Castrol GO! 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil (SG)
Castrol Grand Prix 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil 10W-40 (SG)
Castrol Grand Prix 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil 20W-50 (SG)
Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 (SJ)(Synthetic)


Good answer from TeeDub and Amsoil tech bulletin
 
I like Amsoil's TSB on the subject. They also mentioned the inconsistent quality some have been talking about.

Quote:

There are many more ways to achieve good anti-wear performance
than just using zinc and phosphorus compounds
alone. Zinc and phosphorus are widely used because they
are the most cost effective solutions to achieve anti-wear
properties.

Click to expand...
 
The constant mention of flat tappets got me thinking about overhead cam engines without roller followers. I can think of no reason why camshaft loading is lower on these engines. Some, such as the Ford modular engine have quite narrow cam lobes. Many have direct valve actuation. Many turn very high RPM's and modifications increase this loading. Heck, the more I think about it, even agressive driving loads these valve trains more.

What I get from the various oil companies responses is that a certain level of ZDDP is necessary for proper protection. I see no mention of alternative additives.

Chris
 
ZDDP only reacts chemically with ferrous materials in the valvetrain and on cylinder walls....It forms a very thin layer of sacrificial iron-phosphate with these materials. This layer is continually worn away and re-plenished as the engine is running.

Piston scuffing wear is mainly controlled by proper viscosity/basestock selection for the application, ie higher molecular weight basestocks provide inherently better scuffing protection.
 
Cujet

Worth reading the technical and white papers

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=721686&Main=#Post721686

What you're going to see are new ashless antioxidants and AW/EP adds come into play now, such as alkylated diphenylamines (antioxidants), hindered phenols (antioxidants), and new AW adds such as boron esters, concentrated calcium and synthetic AW/EP adds (such as new esters). A newer type of zinc antioxidant/AW additive is ZDTC, or Zinc dialkyldithiocarbamate, which is similar to Moly DTC and Antimony DTC, and only varies as to the metallic element.

1. "Effects of Ashless Antiwear agents on Valve Train and Sludge Formation in Gasoline Engines," March 13 1997.
2. "Low ZDDP High Performance Automotive Engine Oils using Polymer Esters as an Antiwear Booster," January 7 1997.

From the reading of paper No. 1, I believe the ILSAC and API groups used this author's results to create the 0.06% to 0.08% limits for phosphorous, because the author showed that this % range was the minimum phosphorus amount that could be used without supplemental AW/EOP/Antioxidant additives. Anything less and the result was accelerated cam lobe wear.
 
Quote:

The constant mention of flat tappets got me thinking about overhead cam engines without roller followers. I can think of no reason why camshaft loading is lower on these engines.

Click to expand...


Sure is different. You don't have to accelerate the mass of a heavy lifter and pushrod and you don't need stiffer springs to accelerate the additional mass in the other direction.

Further, SM/GF-4 oils must past severe wear tests in both flat-tappet pushrod engines and rollerless OHC engines.


http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTests/IVAtest/default.htm

http://www.swri.org/4org/d08/GasTests/IIIGtest/default.htm
 
Well, Here is my point about the flat tappets. I clearly understand the valvetrain inertia in flat tappet engines. But one must remember that great pains are taken to reduce reciprocating weight. One must also remember that flat tappet engines generally turn less RPM's in nearly all situations. They also generally have a far lower maximum operating RPM.

Contrast that with certain 4 cylinder engines that turn 7500 RPM on a regular basis. Some go as high as 9K with flat, non rotating followers actuating 2 valves with double valve springs on a single lobe.

Without getting into the engineering of each engine, I suspect that the differences are not great. In fact I suspect that some engines have valve train loading that may be greater today than ever seen before.

Chris
 
Quote:

...Without getting into the engineering of each engine...

Click to expand...


I have and you're way off base here. Look up the the actual specs on the valvetrain parts before you start theorizing based on beliefs instead of fact.

Further, you need a better understanding of lubrication regimes.
 
Leo, You need to really read and understand the purpose of each sequence test. Your comprehension of the purpose and methods of each sequence is obviously flawed. Try again.
 
Sorry I was referring to the IVA test.

But I do fail to understand how 800-1500rpm is the selected RPM at temperatures below the ideal...
 
427 Z06

Thanks for the help! Maybe next time you can post what you know, rather than what you think I should know.

Chris
 
Quote:

Sorry I was referring to the IVA test.

But I do fail to understand how 800-1500rpm is the selected RPM at temperatures below the ideal...

Click to expand...


If you read the purpose of the test, it tells you...short trip, stop 'n go type service. Low temps evaluate how additives perform at lower temps, low RPMs will mean less oil flow to the valvetrain, and, the less likely the cam followers are operating in the hydrodynamic lubrication regime.
 
Quote:

Thanks for the help! Maybe next time you can post what you know, rather than what you think I should know.

Chris

Click to expand...


I have, over 6,000 times. In any event, there's still a need to dispel with falsehoods and myths.
 
427, I took a look at a small percentage of your previous posts. It seems like you post quite a bit, and a good number of those posts have a similar pattern to the above.

I respectfully submit a request for information.

Maybe you think I have no experience in the field? If that is the case, a review of my resume is in order.

'78 Built my first heavily modified 350 Chevy
'79 Formula Atlantic engine and chassis development
'80-'81 Turbo race car eng development, including camshaft devopment and testing.
'81-82 Mercury Marine race team, testing and devopment.
'83-'87 ERAU, Studied Aeronautical Engineering, pilots license and A+P.
'88-90 Lola and Lotus race car development. Plenty of dyno time here.
'90-'93 Porsche turbo race engine development.
'95 carbon composite chassis development.
Other years were aviation based, including the design and fabrication of an 300LBF afterburning turbojet for experimental aircraft. Also, other forms of experimental aircraft engines.

Today I have an aviation career, and am heavily involved with aircraft such as Gulfstream G550, EC135, Pilatus PC-12, Heavily modified Extra 300L's and DG gliders. I am also still involved, to a lesser extent, with race car/bike/boat stuff.

I have far more hands on experience than most.
I have seen my fair share of failures.

Chris
 
Cujet, can you tell me more details on the valve problems that you mentioned with recently made (and downgraded) Mobil 1 15W-50? Thanks.
 
JAG,

The valve train issues I am having relate to excessive clearance between cam and bucket. This is a recent development, and the reason for this thread.

However I must be honest, I have done little research into the why's of this issue. So I will have to reserve judgement until a later date.

While I think the problem is related to ZDDP levels, it could be something else.

Keep in mind that the car in question is an 11 second Mazda Miata driven on the street every day (commuter car).

Chris


Chris
 
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