Sludged engine

[ekpolk]

OK, here are the two filter sizes for the 1MZ, standard on left, of course.

And here's a picture down into the front of the engine room (2003.5 V-6 Camry) showing the tall filter protruding toward the exhaust. That's the front bank manifold above the filter and the cat is immediately to the right, both behind their shields.

Now, I have no proof that the tall filter is actually too close to the hot exhaust, but I chickened out on this, and soon put the std size back on. I'd think since you're having sludge problems, the last thing you'd want to do would be make your oil even hotter. Hope this helps.

 

[ekpolk]

Personally, I shoot shotguns at problems like this*. But that said, I've never had one like this either. Yes, the 1MZ, especially 2001 and earlier, were known for doing this to oil. There is substantial debate to this day as to how much of the problem is an engine design, and how much can be laid at the feet of insufficient maintenance.

Since it's running (well? smoke?), there's probably no reason not to go ahead with the ARX program, and just keep working it. Be aware that sludge could break free, clog an oil passage, and bring a quick and decisive end to the project (and what's left of your engine). EDIT: I'm not suggesting ARX would cause that; it could just happen at any time, irrespective of what you do. If you have the money, time and will, getting the thing torn down and solvent tanked would probably be the fastest route to a clean engine. Personally, I'd also strongly recommend against giving in to any temptation to use the solvent based engine flushes. With bulk sludge like you describe, that would be virtually asking for a "blocked artery" oil starvation "heart attack." Be patient, and let us know how it goes.

* Not the real weapon of course, I mean I try too many things at once...

 

[g20ooh]

In addition to all the fine advice here ( including ekpolks on filter sizing ) there are a few other things to do or make sure of . The following is in addition to the other posts - it is meant to augment not replace the other information .



1 ) COOLING SYSTEM CONDITION/PERFORMANCE .

Absolutely critical on any modern engine esp this one at this time .
( SUBOPTIMAL PERFORMANCE HERE WILL ,MANY TIMES , PUSH THIS ENGINE OVER THE EDGE ON SLUDGE PRODUCTION esp with a blocked or sluggish PCV SYSTEM - NEVER MIND ALL THE OTHER THINGS IT CAN DO - NONE OF WHICH ARE GOOD . Given your description of this vehicles prvious history this is a likely contributor )



2 ) Use 90 -91 octane fuel .
Personally , I would do this until you at least get this engine settled down .

If you have started to sludge rapidly on this engine and your PCV SYSTEM including the baffles and passage ways are functioning properly then besides checking coolant condition/levels ( bottle and radiator ) you really really want to be nice to your headgasket(s) - which both items above strongly affect - and VERY directly .
There are a lot of well meaning people in the world who do not understand how headgaskets really seal cylinder heads and how octane choice can effect that .
Trust me on this one with this engine -I do .
( Russell A use to make this point around here many years ago and he was correct - possibly more than he realized . )


If you have anomalies with the cooling system that suggest the beginnings of a headgasket problem , then go the highest octane you can buy and start figuring out your plan for repair/replacement .



Regardless of the how and why of your specific sludge problem be aware that removing the cam covers and carefully cleaning the upper cylinder head area might be really a good idea .
In fact , its a great idea IF you don't mess it up - which is the only real reason not to recommend it .
Do it wrong esp when you hit the baked on stuff and you will probably toast the motor .
You are not necc . looking for perfection here - and the Auto-RX will pick up the rest over time .


This is because one aspect of this engines sludge/failure path can be caused by sludge blocking certain critical oiling aspects of the cam and valvetrain as well as the drainage system .


The correct use of a really strong suction source can help keep you out of trouble if you chose to remove and clean .

There is one other thing you can do that is always a good idea in general and a really good idea right now if you have the means , are comfortable doing it safely , and have some common/car sense .
I can't remember your particular configuration but in general terms your engine " traps " somewhere between about .6 -1.2 Quarts of oil . If you take one or two floor jacks with /and /or a slopped /pitched surface you can usually drain 2/3s to7/8s of the oil that normally stays behind . ( You can also do the same with a suction source . )


Safety first .


Good Luck .

 

[Doc8404]

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Change oil immediately with fresh Castrol GTX and an oversized filter such as Napa Gold 1516, which has the same bypass valve and diameter but 1.4" longer than OEM size.
You want as much capacity as you can get to store the sludge. Wix filter's thread end bypass will also help since sludge deposited won't be washed back into the engine when filter media is clogged and bypassed.

Dump 10 oz ARX into the new oil and start treatment. Cut open the filter to monitor progress.
PCV valve is the symptom, not the cause of sludge.

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is there an EZ TO USE site that i can figure out if i can get oversize filters for my three vehicles?
last site i visited, it appears the civic doens't have an overzie filter...and that sucks because the filter is TINY...I can't imagine it being big enough to filter the 4 qts of MC for 5k miles....makes me worry.

 

[ShiningArcanine]

Guys, it was a false alarm. I never actually poured the oil into the engine myself, so I had no idea how close the cover that fpny mentioned was to the opening. When I went to put in the Auto-RX and saw it, I panicked.

Here are some pictures:

 

[Lexura]

The easy way is to search "+oversize +honda" on this forum to find out what others have successful with. Also verify it by going to Wix on-line cross-reference to make sure same bypass valve.
I have an 1mz and currently have an oversize equivalent of Wix 1516. Top of the filter dome is about 1" from the exhaust manifold header. The front pre-cat is ~1" from the plastic AC condenser fan frame and even shorter distance to a rubber portion of ATF cooler line. Neither rubber nor plastic appear cooked after 80K+ miles.
Let's get some data and real world experience. I will wrap a piece of paper around the dome end with a rubber band and let everyone know at the end of the day what happened.

 

[Doc8404]

OK, so i went to the wix site, got the measuerements, but then what?

enter various vehicles to find a bigger size???

 

[Crashbox]

The oversize Wix filter for my '95 Civic is 51344; standard size is Wix 51334 or Fram 3593A- don't know if it would be the same for your engine though...

 

[Durango]

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My 1995 Toyota Avalon has 93493 miles on it and approximately 1500 miles on its Castro GTX 5w30 motor oil and Purolator PureONE oil filter. I purchased a bottle of Auto-RX last December and I was going to put ten ounces of it in the engine today. I had a plastic cup with lines drawn on it to indicate four and six ounces, so that I could pour exactly ten into the engine. I poured four ounces into the cup; then I went outside, I opened the hood, I opened the oil cap and I discovered engine sludge had accumulated since the last oil change such that it had filled the oil opening all the way to the oil cap. None was visible on the bottom of the cap, but judging from the height and shape of the sludge, the sludge is touching it when it is in place. I called my uncle for help, as he is the car person in the family (he was a car enthusiast when he was younger), but he is not home. I imagine that the most prudent thing to do is to scoop the sludge out of the opening, do an oil and oil filter change, run the Auto-RX treatment that I wanted to do and then hope that everything is okay. Is this a wise idea and do I have any other options?

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ShiningArcaine,

If your engine shows sludge already I'd flush the engine out right away and change the oil and filter. One thing that I will not use is Castrol oil. My past cars have always shown small amounts of sludge using Castrol. Personally I'd try another brand like Mobil CLEAN 5000. At this point it can't hurt because you might have to have Toyota work on it anyway. In the future you might ask them if they offer a synthetic. I use Mobil 1 in my 89' Toyota Canry and have never noticed any signs of sludge.

Your only other option is to take it to Toyota right away and have them repair it under the so called agreement that came down the pipe a couple weeks ago about the Toyota sludge problem issue. Most likely they'll just flush out your engine good and go from there.

Durango

 

[ekpolk]

Shining:

Shame on me, but I should have thought of this sooner. Your engine may not be as bad as you think. I totally forgot that the 1MZ engines have a peculiar black rubbery coating on top of the baffle in the oil filler. This surface looks jet black even in a brand new 1MZ engine. Not sure exactly what it's made of, but the consistency is that of very tight, thin foam rubber. Why Toyota would put a black coating on this baffle is baffling to say the least.

A few years ago, I got into an amusing debate with a smug Toyota tech about this stuff. It's a four page thread, but I'll link you right to where the fun begins. Click here, over to ToyotaNation. To his credit, I did convince him to go look at a new car on the lot, and he did then agree that this stuff is there when new.

Anyway, I still see some gunk around your filler rim, but your situation may not be nearly as bad as you think.

 

[ekpolk]

Incidentally, this is what the oil filler looks like in a brand new 1MZ engine:

(From 2003)

 

[bdai]

Quote:

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OK, so i went to the wix site, got the measuerements, but then what?

enter various vehicles to find a bigger size???

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I usually stick them into the Baldwin Filters catalog and see if they list any oversize versions. In the case of your Civic, they list the Baldwin B1431 as an oversize version - it's 0.5" longer in Baldwin format, but both numbers cross reference to a WIX 51356

In the case that Baldwin lists nothing for an oversize filter, I either plug in some filter numbers from the local supplier and check gasket, thread, burst pressure, and bypass numbers, or I google the OEM part number with the term 'oversize'. If all else fails, I post the question on a few forums.

 

[Bill in Utah]

So lets see.

We have a non problem. But the engine should have never seen anything but Syn, needs a oversize filter, coolant change, PCV problems and needs to get every last oil drop out of the engine.

Oh, and use a 91 oct fuel..

What does the manual state?

I agree that the PCV is important (as it is with ANY car these days) so keep an eye on it.

Put the standard filter (correct size. IE what is spec'd for it) on there and refill with any SL/SM oil of your choice.

(Whats up with all of these engines lately putting syn in and getting oil leaks? I thought that was not happening anymore..)

Do not go over 5k on your oil change. (I agree that Toyota messed up there) You have made it to 100k and will continue to rack on the miles if you keep doing what your Dad has been doing.

You oil filler looked that way when it was new. No sludge.

No problems!

Take care, bill

 

[Bill in Utah]

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I wish there was an edit function.

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Ask and you shall receive!

1) Hit the reply button on the post you want to edit
2) Go to the link at the top of the page and change "newreply.php" to "editpost.php"

Take care, bill

 

[fpny]

I am with you, Bill.

 

[Lexura]

Quote:

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What does the manual state?

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Elpolk is right that we should not use shootgun blast approach, also let's not make blanket statement, especially on a 1mz-fe that Toyota has made a 8 year sludge warranty on.

Toyota states 7.5K for normal driving condition, 5K is for those under special operating conditions.
From Owner's Manual Supplement of my 1mz-fe, P71.
Special Operating Conditions are defined as:

1. Towing a trailer or using a camper or car top carrier.
2. Repeated short trips of less than 5 miles in temperatures below freezing
3. Extensive idling or low-speed driving for long distance as in heavy commercial use such as delivery, taxi, or patrol car
4. Operating on rough, muddy, or salt-covered roads
5. Operating on unpaved or dusty road.

Now I don't tow, drive short distance in cold winter or operate like a commercial car, therefore I am under normal driving condition as defined by Toyota. I used M1, OEM size filter, and never let my OCI get past 8K. Here is what I found after running 10 oz of ARX.
Sludge scrapped of the filter media in ARX rinse phase

Sludge particles in the pan

Every method has its application, go-by-owner-manual is OK with other engines, but how many members here have tried ARX in 1mzfe?
Opinions are fine, but it isn't more useful to show some data (experience from many) or your positive or negative experience (datum of one) with 1mz-fe + ARX.

 

[ShiningArcanine]

Quote:

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Shining:

Shame on me, but I should have thought of this sooner. Your engine may not be as bad as you think. I totally forgot that the 1MZ engines have a peculiar black rubbery coating on top of the baffle in the oil filler. This surface looks jet black even in a brand new 1MZ engine. Not sure exactly what it's made of, but the consistency is that of very tight, thin foam rubber. Why Toyota would put a black coating on this baffle is baffling to say the least.

A few years ago, I got into an amusing debate with a smug Toyota tech about this stuff. It's a four page thread, but I'll link you right to where the fun begins. Click here, over to ToyotaNation. To his credit, I did convince him to go look at a new car on the lot, and he did then agree that this stuff is there when new.

Anyway, I still see some gunk around your filler rim, but your situation may not be nearly as bad as you think.

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You are right; it is not as bad as I initially thought. There is a very thin layer of black stuff on the black coating. I am running the Auto-RX treatment through the engine that I planned to put in it yesterday. While the engine seems to be running a little better so far, I have only driven about a hundred miles since putting it in this morning so it might be the placebo effect at this point.

I want to switch to Pennzoil Platinum from Castro GTX, but I am worried that I might encounter problems if any existing sludge comes loose from being soaked in a Group III motor oil, so I am hoping that the Auto-RX treatment will eliminate any gunk that could cause a problem.

Quote:

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So lets see.

We have a non problem. But the engine should have never seen anything but Syn, needs a oversize filter, coolant change, PCV problems and needs to get every last oil drop out of the engine.

Oh, and use a 91 oct fuel..

What does the manual state?

I agree that the PCV is important (as it is with ANY car these days) so keep an eye on it.

Put the standard filter (correct size. IE what is spec'd for it) on there and refill with any SL/SM oil of your choice.

(Whats up with all of these engines lately putting syn in and getting oil leaks? I thought that was not happening anymore..)

Do not go over 5k on your oil change. (I agree that Toyota messed up there) You have made it to 100k and will continue to rack on the miles if you keep doing what your Dad has been doing.

You oil filler looked that way when it was new. No sludge.

No problems!

Take care, bill

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Well, I am now on a 5,000 mile PCV valve change interval because the last one was clogged at 10,000 miles. As for the oil change interval, I am planning to switch to Pennzoil Platinum and doubling the oil change interval, as I am finding myself changing the oil every six to eight weeks, which is starting to become a nuisance. I expect that the Group III motor oil should be able to handle it without a problem. Is this a bad idea?

Quote:

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Quote:

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I wish there was an edit function.

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Ask and you shall receive!

1) Hit the reply button on the post you want to edit
2) Go to the link at the top of the page and change "newreply.php" to "editpost.php"

Take care, bill

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Cool, thanks.

 

[Lexura]

Quote:

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Now, I have no proof that the tall filter is actually too close to the hot exhaust, but I chickened out on this, and soon put the std size back on. I'd think since you're having sludge problems, the last thing you'd want to do would be make your oil even hotter. Hope this helps.

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As promised, couple of pictures after 50 miles of mixed driving. I am also interested to see any + or - experience of from other members as well.

The white edge is WalMart receipt wrapped around the oversized filter.

Except few dirt and oil marks, nothing burned.

There are 1" between the front pre-Cat and oversized filter.
But 1" is also the distance between the plastic frame of AC condenser fan and Cat

Same distance from Cat to ATF cooler rubber line

 

[va3ux]

Quote:

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Incidentally, this is what the oil filler looks like in a brand new 1MZ engine:

(From 2003)

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Well, that would startle me too if it were my first time seeing it.

 

[va3ux]

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Guys, it was a false alarm. I never actually poured the oil into the engine myself, so I had no idea how close the cover that fpny mentioned was to the opening. When I went to put in the Auto-RX and saw it, I panicked.

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This is good news !