Should I switch to another Synthetic oil ?

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Knock sensors are reactive. The engine has to knock for it to pull timing and even then the timing gets put back in quickly then it knocks agian, timing gets pulled again and so on. No thanks, I will continue putting premium in my 11:1 TL and enjoy the extra power and gas mileage and without the engine damaging detonation. Not to mention higher egts with the timing pulled.

Now if the car doesn't knock in the first place then by all means run 87. I just don't agree with people saving $1.50 on a fillup of 87 on a car that requires 91 just to get a 2-5mpg reduction in economy that costs more money in the long run anyway. It blows my mind that people are so cheap that they will save a couple dollars on a fillup and cost themselves $10 in worse mpg.


Depends on the ECM I'm sure. Some will pull timing and then make an entry to the CL table that at X RPM under Y load and Z timing with ECT at R and ACT at S that knock occurred and will add a degree (or whatever increment it works in) less the next time those conditions occur and will continue to do this until no knock is detected.

This will eventually result in a CL table full of pulled timing and less performance. Even putting higher octane gasoline in at this point will make no immediate difference. The ECM will constantly "test" it's learned points and if it discovers it can add more timing, then it will do so.

Of course how this transpires will be dependant upon the brand of engine/ECM, how the base table is setup, how the CL learn function is setup....etc.

I imagine many of them in production are still of the "knock and respond" type that BuickGN has alluded to.

 

[BuickGN]

Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Knock sensors are reactive. The engine has to knock for it to pull timing and even then the timing gets put back in quickly then it knocks agian, timing gets pulled again and so on. No thanks, I will continue putting premium in my 11:1 TL and enjoy the extra power and gas mileage and without the engine damaging detonation. Not to mention higher egts with the timing pulled.

Now if the car doesn't knock in the first place then by all means run 87. I just don't agree with people saving $1.50 on a fillup of 87 on a car that requires 91 just to get a 2-5mpg reduction in economy that costs more money in the long run anyway. It blows my mind that people are so cheap that they will save a couple dollars on a fillup and cost themselves $10 in worse mpg.


Depends on the ECM I'm sure. Some will pull timing and then make an entry to the CL table that at X RPM under Y load and Z timing with ECT at R and ACT at S that knock occurred and will add a degree (or whatever increment it works in) less the next time those conditions occur and will continue to do this until no knock is detected.

This will eventually result in a CL table full of pulled timing and less performance. Even putting higher octane gasoline in at this point will make no immediate difference. The ECM will constantly "test" it's learned points and if it discovers it can add more timing, then it will do so.

Of course how this transpires will be dependant upon the brand of engine/ECM, how the base table is setup, how the CL learn function is setup....etc.

I imagine many of them in production are still of the "knock and respond" type that BuickGN has alluded to.


Agreed. Some have found that when using 87 in the TL with it's high compression they lose a solid 5mpg and it can take several tankfulls of 91 for the mileage to fully come back.

My GN will pull timing in 3 degree increments and put it back in at 3 degree increments with the chip I have. With the stocker it pulls 3 degrees and puts 1 degree back at a time. I'm sure it's very primative by today's standards since it can't "learn". Don't know where I'm going with that.......

My main point is that if the car is designed for 91, chances are you're getting worse gas mileage from the pulled timing to negate any savings at the pump. This year when the winter gas comes around I'm just going to do a reset on the computer to speed up the process.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
So if you car does not have a knock or ping how is running a higher grade of fuel going to get more power?

(*if* the ECM would allow any more advance of timing past set numbers)


If it doesn't have both the sensors, and the programming in the ECU (as opposed to just "safety" retarding), it won't. Guess I sorta sidetracked the thread, but that generalization about "premium will never help performance..." drives me nuts. For many cars, true; for others false.

 

[02zx9r]

i would stick with M1!

 

[jerre310]

Years ago I watched a tape explaining the use of what they called a one arm bandit. It showed how, just leaving up slightly on the lever leaves enough oil back in to affect the test. It also said there was no accepted test procedure that was recognized for testing motor oil.
Everyone seems to criticize Amsoil for using a 4 ball wear test that has a ASTM test number, under controlled procedures but my local Scheaffer and Cenpeco dealer runs around with these one arm bandits and bad mouth everyone else. Now Royal Purple is using this demo.

 

[MatchboxCar]

Originally Posted By: Johnny
If you have been using Mobil 1 for 20-25 years, why switch. You will be hard pressed to find a better oil for your application.


Yup!!! I shake my head at some advertising...

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: ekpolk
Originally Posted By: Bill in Utah
So if you car does not have a knock or ping how is running a higher grade of fuel going to get more power?

(*if* the ECM would allow any more advance of timing past set numbers)


If it doesn't have both the sensors, and the programming in the ECU (as opposed to just "safety" retarding), it won't. Guess I sorta sidetracked the thread, but that generalization about "premium will never help performance..." drives me nuts. For many cars, true; for others false.


Side track continued. The whole thrust of the "premium will do your engine no good" was due to only premiums being approved for the vanguard Euro stuff that had fuel injection. When everyone got FI ..the "belief" that only premium was good enough lingered ..and was in fact implied by some fuel marketers. This resulted in Exxon having to pay and do some corrective advertising. The minimum standards for all fuel, in regards to cleanliness, is uniform.

It was never about lack of "enhanced drivability" (aka performance).

 

[ekpolk]

Gary:

Good points. And yet we still get Jill Claybrook and her her ilk continuing to "help" the "mindless and helpless consumer" by making blanket generalizations about the non-benefits of premium fuel. Most of these blanket statements are misleading at best, outright false at worst.

The truth today is that some cars need only regular, and will see no difference at all above 87 octane; some cars can run fine on regular or premium and will increase output on premium; and finally, some cars must have premium or they are at risk of self-destruction.

Alas, the hand-wringers figure that this is too complicated for "Joe Sixpack" and so from them, we get mindless, overbroad generalizations.

 

[ekpolk]

Originally Posted By: jerre310
Years ago I watched a tape explaining the use of what they called a one arm bandit. It showed how, just leaving up slightly on the lever leaves enough oil back in to affect the test. It also said there was no accepted test procedure that was recognized for testing motor oil.
Everyone seems to criticize Amsoil for using a 4 ball wear test that has a ASTM test number, under controlled procedures but my local Scheaffer and Cenpeco dealer runs around with these one arm bandits and bad mouth everyone else. Now Royal Purple is using this demo.


Jerre:

I see your point, but don't mix the metaphores. Irrespective of whether these "one arm bandit" tests are valid or not, Amsoil's use of the four-ball test is still suspect with respect to the performance of motor oil. I'll hasten to add that I firmly believe that Amsoil puts out a superb product, I just think they dilute their cred using tests that don't really speak to the real-world performance of the product. Bottom line to me is that ANYONE who peddles products using bogus tests or data should be rightfully slammed for doing so.

 

[lexus114]

what is an egt?

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Knock sensors are reactive. The engine has to knock for it to pull timing and even then the timing gets put back in quickly then it knocks agian, timing gets pulled again and so on. No thanks, I will continue putting premium in my 11:1 TL and enjoy the extra power and gas mileage and without the engine damaging detonation. Not to mention higher egts with the timing pulled.

Now if the car doesn't knock in the first place then by all means run 87. I just don't agree with people saving $1.50 on a fillup of 87 on a car that requires 91 just to get a 2-5mpg reduction in economy that costs more money in the long run anyway. It blows my mind that people are so cheap that they will save a couple dollars on a fillup and cost themselves $10 in worse mpg.

My sentiments exactly,but what is an egt?

 

[lexus114]

Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Originally Posted By: OVERK1LL
Originally Posted By: BuickGN
Knock sensors are reactive. The engine has to knock for it to pull timing and even then the timing gets put back in quickly then it knocks agian, timing gets pulled again and so on. No thanks, I will continue putting premium in my 11:1 TL and enjoy the extra power and gas mileage and without the engine damaging detonation. Not to mention higher egts with the timing pulled.

Now if the car doesn't knock in the first place then by all means run 87. I just don't agree with people saving $1.50 on a fillup of 87 on a car that requires 91 just to get a 2-5mpg reduction in economy that costs more money in the long run anyway. It blows my mind that people are so cheap that they will save a couple dollars on a fillup and cost themselves $10 in worse mpg.


Depends on the ECM I'm sure. Some will pull timing and then make an entry to the CL table that at X RPM under Y load and Z timing with ECT at R and ACT at S that knock occurred and will add a degree (or whatever increment it works in) less the next time those conditions occur and will continue to do this until no knock is detected.

This will eventually result in a CL table full of pulled timing and less performance. Even putting higher octane gasoline in at this point will make no immediate difference. The ECM will constantly "test" it's learned points and if it discovers it can add more timing, then it will do so.

Of course how this transpires will be dependant upon the brand of engine/ECM, how the base table is setup, how the CL learn function is setup....etc.

I imagine many of them in production are still of the "knock and respond" type that BuickGN has alluded to.


Agreed. Some have found that when using 87 in the TL with it's high compression they lose a solid 5mpg and it can take several tankfulls of 91 for the mileage to fully come back.

My GN will pull timing in 3 degree increments and put it back in at 3 degree increments with the chip I have. With the stocker it pulls 3 degrees and puts 1 degree back at a time. I'm sure it's very primative by today's standards since it can't "learn". Don't know where I'm going with that.......

My main point is that if the car is designed for 91, chances are you're getting worse gas mileage from the pulled timing to negate any savings at the pump. This year when the winter gas comes around I'm just going to do a reset on the computer to speed up the process.


Do you still use premium in the winter time??

 

[BuickGN]

Exhaust gas temp. It goes up with less timing. So much so that in my turbo car I would retard the timing for a second and it made turbo spool instant.

 

[jerre310]

EKpolk - I have never seen anyone slamming Scheaffer & Cenpeco dealers for using one arm bandit machines and egg beaters to show how great there products are.

Also, how did this topic get side tracked to octane of gas, it started out about switching to synthetic and Royal Purple using this great test demo movie.

 

[FZ1]

Have you had an oil related engine failure in 20+ years of M1 use?

 

[Bill in Utah]

Originally Posted By: FZ1
Have you had an oil related engine failure in 20+ years of M1 use?


I've never had a oil failure and never use Mobil 1(for the most part). (in 30 plus years)

Your point is?

My point is it does not matter for 98% of the cars out there.

Follow the manual for what TYPE of oil and weight and use that oil for the OCI in the manual and all will be well.

Most engines don't NEED syn, The owners WANT it. In the end (200k plus) it does not matter.

Back to the original post;

Quote:
I drive 81 miles a day in my 08 Honda civic, from 500 feet sea level to 4200 feet (I work in the local mountains). I get most of the extremely of the weather-heat and cold.


With this type of driving in a honda, ANY 5w-20 will be fine and protect your engine well. And I'd do a 6-8k OCI with ANY 5w-20 (incl conventional) with NO worries.

Take care, Bill

 

[FZ1]

My point is,"If it ain't broke;Don't fix it.