Shell Helix Conventional / Semi-Synth Oils

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Originally Posted By: dirtydannyd
What is the OCI of your car and do you have any oil usage issues?

The Service Indicator fitted to the car goes to about 12,000km, give or take some. My present regime will be about 6,000-7,000km on the present fill (10w50) to see if I can slowly clean any accumulation from the lifters, if present, to try and quieten the engine a bit.

There are no consumption issues with this engine during the last 25,000km of driving.
 
A3/B4 semi synthetics.

The US's average oils are so sad in comparison to these.

Diesel and Euro oils are about the best we have.
 
Originally Posted By: BrocLuno
What is the SOPUS North America product equivelent to: Shell Helix HX7 10W-40 semi-synthetic in the blue bottle was $32 for 5L (SN, A3/B4, MB 229.3, VW 502/505) ??




I am only guessing....anything semisyn in 10w40 in API CF....

High priced!

Here is 22euros/5L...


Helix ultra is 31euros/5L....42e/5L for diesel variant although speced the same as gasoline one
smile.gif
5w40 both...
 
It's not that easy to find but of the two oils, I'd use Helix HX5 10W40 (the SN/CF/A3/B3 version) in preference to Helix HX7 10W40 every time.
 
Administratively I am a newbie from Europe (which after the Brexit vote now excludes the UK). However you maybe onto something...

Regarding the two Shell 10W40's both will be Group I/Group III mixes. From the various bits of tittle-tattle I've picked up, I suspect that the HX5 oil will contain a lot more Group III than the apparently better HX7 oil.
 
Good to hear, then. Welcome to BITOG !
welcome2.gif


That is odd, HX7 carries 229.3 approval, and it's not a that easy one to get (or is it ?)!
I think I've never seen HX5 in 10W40 flavour.


I have two ~20 yo cars, and sometimes I think I'd rather use old tech 10/15W40 in them rather then more modern "full synthetic". I guess that can be called "bored in the bitog way" and that I'd better be greasing my caliper pins and putting anti rust stuff on the undercarriages of my cars right now instead of delaying it
smile.gif


Cheers

PS: the other day I was reading a site about Maserati and a guy that was trying hard to find oils from when the car were built, like Agip synth 10W40
 
I dont know 100% for sure, but Ithink is possibly works something like this...

Shell defines their oils by the specs they carry. They ask suppliers to bid against these specs. Humble HX5 would typically only be required to carry simple API/ACEA specs and no OEM stuff whereas HX7 would be expected to meet various OEM stuff. Interestingly, even if HX5 could technically meet some of the OEM specs, it would never get put through the requisite tests.

HX7 is very likely based on an old Infineum formulation that has been updated over the years. It's based on Shellvis 261 VII which is a technically efficient polymer but expensive vs OCP VII. All things being equal, it gives you a low polymer loading which enables you to pass the VW TDi test and get stuff like ACEA B4. Shellvis also does well on the TU5 for all the wrong reasons.

HX5 is a newer formulation based on Lubrizol tech which means it's based on Lubrizol's own OCP VII. Traditionally this would be 22 SSI Lz 7077 but I have a sneaking suspicion they went for 35 SSI Lz 7075. OCP traditionally has a problem with the Peugeot TU5 which you need to get ACEA A3. IMO, this is very unfair because the tests is perversely set up in a way to reward thermally unstable VIIs (like Styrene-Isoprenes). The accepted way to get OCP based oil through the TU5 is to lob in great gobs of Group III which I reckon is what Lz did.

Again, IMO, given the choice between two 10W40, I'd always opt for the one with the higher level of Group III; hence my preference for HX5 over HX7.
 
Hi SonofJoe, and Welcome !!!
Long time reader first time poster I assume. I like a man who knows his VII chemistry. They are few and far between, I remember the last one fondly.

Anyway the HX5 the OP was talking about (from Australia) was 15W-40 (not 10W-40) so do you still think it has great gobs of Group III in it ?
 
Hi SR5,
As I recall the last one was declared the Antichrist and burnt at the stake. I'm so glad I'm me and not him!
The 15W40 HX5 will very likely be all mineral and nothing special. The high levels of Group III would only apply to HX5 10W40. If you Google it you will find it does indeed exist but Shell only seem to offer it in obscure places probably because in their boots, they know it's both too expensive and too good.
 
Just to muddy the waters abit, Igot a suggestion for Popsy:

http://www.motoroel100.de/epages/62593035.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62593035/Products/%22Total%205W-40%20Quartz%209000%20Energy%205L%22

I believe you got good results with this oil already?

Id buy 25 litres for 5*15euro, add 12.99 for shipping to home/work/neighbour/mom and end up with 25 litres of oil for 87.99euro, or 3.52 euro per litre. It's going to be tough to get more bang for your buck.

88 euro hardly buys 5 litres of castrol/mobil etc off the shelf here.. ridiculous, those MSRP...
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
Hi SR5,
As I recall the last one was declared the Antichrist and burnt at the stake. I'm so glad I'm me and not him!
The 15W40 HX5 will very likely be all mineral and nothing special. The high levels of Group III would only apply to HX5 10W40. If you Google it you will find it does indeed exist but Shell only seem to offer it in obscure places probably because in their boots, they know it's both too expensive and too good.


Well since I'm here chatting with the new guy about shell oils, what is your opinion of Shell Helix HX8 5W-30 ? It's a full synthetic (I assume Grp III) that is SN, A3/B4, MB 229.3, VW 502/505 and RN 0700 / 0710.

The reason I ask is that it is the least expensive "full synthetic" oil in Australia, going by regular retail. Just a few dollars more than most of the semi-synthetics, and $10 or $20 less than the other full synthetics from Castrol, Valvoline etc.
 
As per usual, getting hold of information to make a judgement on whether Shell HX8 5W30 is any good isn't easy.

I found this that someone had posted earlier on BITOG...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3587706/Shell_Helix_HX8___5w-30

It doesn't tell you much but the sub-12 KV100 does suggest this stuff is OCP VII based. Shellvis based oils can really struggle to meet 3.5 min HTHS and it's not unusual to see KV100's of 12.3 to 12.4 (ie very close to the 12.5 max limit) to make the oil barely on-grade.

Tech-wise, the profile looks at lot like what you get from Afton's Hitec 9490 12.6% additive pack in full Group III.

Here's the link to get the Hitec 9490 PDF file so you can compare for yourself...

http://www.aftonchemical.com/Solutions/EngOilAdd/Pages/PassengerCar.aspx

So my considered opinion, given the absence of any definitive data whatsoever is yes, HX8 5W30 is probably an okay kind of oil. If it's cheap, then it ranks very high in my book and I'd probably buy it.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
As per usual, getting hold of information to make a judgement on whether Shell HX8 5W30 is any good isn't easy.

I found this that someone had posted earlier on BITOG...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3587706/Shell_Helix_HX8___5w-30

It doesn't tell you much but the sub-12 KV100 does suggest this stuff is OCP VII based. Shellvis based oils can really struggle to meet 3.5 min HTHS and it's not unusual to see KV100's of 12.3 to 12.4 (ie very close to the 12.5 max limit) to make the oil barely on-grade.

Tech-wise, the profile looks at lot like what you get from Afton's Hitec 9490 12.6% additive pack in full Group III.

Here's the link to get the Hitec 9490 PDF file so you can compare for yourself...

http://www.aftonchemical.com/Solutions/EngOilAdd/Pages/PassengerCar.aspx

So my considered opinion, given the absence of any definitive data whatsoever is yes, HX8 5W30 is probably an okay kind of oil. If it's cheap, then it ranks very high in my book and I'd probably buy it.


Welcome, good to have you here! Shell isn't highly regarded here (my base, not Bitog in general) outside of Ultra and Rimula range. Personally, never liked lower positioned Shell oils, although I haven't tried one in 15 years.

Helix Ultra and Rimula are my "best buy" oils, great quality /performance ratio.
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe
As per usual, getting hold of information to make a judgement on whether Shell HX8 5W30 is any good isn't easy.

I found this that someone had posted earlier on BITOG...

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3587706/Shell_Helix_HX8___5w-30

It doesn't tell you much but the sub-12 KV100 does suggest this stuff is OCP VII based. Shellvis based oils can really struggle to meet 3.5 min HTHS and it's not unusual to see KV100's of 12.3 to 12.4 (ie very close to the 12.5 max limit) to make the oil barely on-grade.

Tech-wise, the profile looks at lot like what you get from Afton's Hitec 9490 12.6% additive pack in full Group III.

Here's the link to get the Hitec 9490 PDF file so you can compare for yourself...

http://www.aftonchemical.com/Solutions/EngOilAdd/Pages/PassengerCar.aspx

So my considered opinion, given the absence of any definitive data whatsoever is yes, HX8 5W30 is probably an okay kind of oil. If it's cheap, then it ranks very high in my book and I'd probably buy it.

Yes of all the synthetic 5W-30 A3/B4 oils I can easily get here, the Shell HX8 stands out as having the lowest KV100 at 11.9 with Castrol Magnatec at the other end with a KV100 of 12.2 cSt.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but OCP is efficient and cheap and adds to HTHS but is more prone to shear, while Shelvis is expensive and shear stable but less efficient and adds less to HTHS.

Anyway I always thought, that for a given HTHS the oil with the lowest KV100 was better as it had the lowest VII load. An oversimplification I know, as it ignores shear and thermal stability. That polymer efficiency Va shear stability makes life hard, as you want both, but from what I can tell they appear to go in opposition to each other (ie you tend to swap one for the other).
 
Nearly right but not quite...

OCP VII's are cheap (basically they're made from simple ethylene and propylene), widely available (lots of folks make them), thermally stable (great at 150C) and mechanically stable (they do well on both KO30 shear and the more severe KO90 shear tests).

The Shellvis VII's are polymerically more efficient than OCPs but are expensive to make (they get made from exotics like butadiene, isoprene, styrene and di-vinyl benzene), are in relatively short supply (only one company called Kraton makes the stuff), are not so thermally stable and have limited mechanically stability (good on KO30, less so on KO90 shear). You can 'game' these VIIs to get better shear by dropping to lower SSI levels but this brings additional problems of cost and polymer loading.

Yes, in general terms, for a given HTHS, go with the lowest KV100.

It's probably an oversimplification but IMO, SV VII tends to do better on some of the specification engine tests and where cost isn't an issue whereas OCPs do better on real life cars and where cost is a factor.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: Jetronic
Just to muddy the waters abit, Igot a suggestion for Popsy:

http://www.motoroel100.de/epages/62593035.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/62593035/Products/%22Total%205W-40%20Quartz%209000%20Energy%205L%22

I believe you got good results with this oil already?

Id buy 25 litres for 5*15euro, add 12.99 for shipping to home/work/neighbour/mom and end up with 25 litres of oil for 87.99euro, or 3.52 euro per litre. It's going to be tough to get more bang for your buck.

88 euro hardly buys 5 litres of castrol/mobil etc off the shelf here.. ridiculous, those MSRP...


Hey! Do you read my mind?
wink.gif

How could you know that's exactly what I bought? 229.5 oil at this price, perfect for friends
smile.gif
Maybe I'll try it in my diesel, it'll probably do ok in it. Not in the others, they deserve the most exotic stuff ! (/jk)
 
I bought the oil next to it, the 0w-30 PAO based for 25 liters per jug. Meets the same specs (except Porsche as it's only for 40 weights I believe) and I bought 15 jugs of it at once, then collected there.

Enough oil for thelife of the car, and I do consider a PAO/ester synthetic exotic. the 5w40 isn't PAO based though, but that's a [censored] of a price.

When I worked for a Peugeot dealer, that's what we used in the diesel engined cars, even the ones with FAP. I wouldn't have any issues using it in diesel engines. I paid 3.6 euro per litre at the time if I wanted to service my own car. The older cars got 10w40 quartz7000
 
Originally Posted By: SonofJoe

OCP VII's are cheap (basically they're made from simple ethylene and propylene), widely available (lots of folks make them), thermally stable (great at 150C) and mechanically stable (they do well on both KO30 shear and the more severe KO90 shear tests).

The Shellvis VII's are polymerically more efficient than OCPs but are expensive to make (they get made from exotics like butadiene, isoprene, styrene and di-vinyl benzene), are in relatively short supply (only one company called Kraton makes the stuff), are not so thermally stable and have limited mechanically stability (good on KO30, less so on KO90 shear). You can 'game' these VIIs to get better shear by dropping to lower SSI levels but this brings additional problems of cost and polymer loading.


OK, thanks for that, nicely explained.
Like I said, good to have someone around who knows their VII chemistry and takes the time to explain it. Cheers.
 
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