Shell 0w-20 and 0w-40

[buster]

http://www.autosport-international.com/shownews-17.asp

quote:

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Developed with Shell's extensive experience in motorsport around the world, from Ferrari in Formula One to Audi at Le Mans, the new products have all been tried, tested and proven in top-level motorsport.
Shell Helix Racing Engine Oil 0W-20 is a semi-synthetic lubricant developed with renowned race engine builder Mugen to meet their stringent requirements for motorsport use only. It has been optimised to
maximise engine power without increasing engine wear. The formulation exploits Shell's advanced XVHI base oils and a unique combination of performance additives.
Shell Helix Racing Engine Oil 0W-40 is a fully synthetic lubricant developed to suit high-performance competition engines especially in rallying. It is suitable for catalyst-equipped and turbo engines.

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This quote says exactly what the Race Car engineering article said in that Shell does use Semi-synthetic blends for many of their race teams.

 

[G-MAN]

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Originally posted by buster:
This quote says exactly what the Race Car engineering article said in that Shell does use Semi-synthetic blends for many of their race teams.

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Semi-synthetic in the sense that it's XHVI and ester based (with maybe some PAO). This is a far cry from the "semi-synthetics" that are Group III/Group II blends.

 

[buster]

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This is a far cry from the "semi-synthetics" that are Group III/Group II blends.

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Thanks for clearing that up.

What you said makes sense.

 

[Johnny]

I wish they would get off their butts and bring products like this over here.

 

[buster]

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I wish they would get off their butts and bring products like this over here

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I agree!

 

[pscholte]

I'm guessing this is the approach that Shell has been taking ever since they came out with TMO when I was in Germany in the early 80s. I'm almost certain they used a racing version of TMO in both Formula 1 and Sports Car racing.

 

[AEHaas]

I am one of those who believes that a single type, size of oil molecule is not the best, that a mixtures of different length oil molecules may be better.

Mobil 1 "tri-synthetic" is a mixture. It may be why mineral based oils are not that different from synthetics except at lower temperatures. I am certainly for the use of synthetic oils but I also use mineral based oils as well.

aehaas

 

[JohnBrowning]

Notice that Shell does not recomend the 0W20 for daily drivers!!! It does kind of say that the 0W40 is ok for daily drivers!

 

[G-MAN]

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Originally posted by AEHaas:
Mobil 1 "tri-synthetic" is a mixture. It may be why mineral based oils are not that different from synthetics except at lower temperatures.

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[John_E]

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Notice that Shell does not recomend the 0W20 for daily drivers!!! It does kind of say that the 0W40 is ok for daily drivers!

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I would certainly not use anyone's 0W-20 in my VW Passat, but might it not be appropriate for a late model Honda or Ford?

 

[pscholte]

I used to be a solid Shell fan but after some of the used oil analysis I have seen posted by our outside NA BITOGers and based on either Shannow's or Sprintman's (can't remember who commented) Timken results, I am not really interested in Shell oils, although the special racing formulations used in the Ferraris and Audi R8 might be "interesting" (and cost about as much as my whole stash).

 

[Audi Junkie]

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I am one of those who believes that a single type, size of oil molecule is not the best, that a mixtures of different length oil molecules may be better.

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Your'e in good company, Doctor.

I also feel that a range of molecule sizes could offer an effective "cusion" in EP situations. I am in no way an expert, but maybe the long molecules (film) could be compressed to the point that the lesser sized molecules come into play as pressure increases...offering a softer mating of the metal parts.

 

[JohnBrowning]

AEHass, You are totaly mis-understanding how oils are blended. All oil are blended together with base stocks of different viscositys. In some cases you might have two different base stocks of the same viscosity with completely different chemical propertys. The chemical properties of the base stock is as inportant as the viscosity in chooseing wich one to use. You can have from 2-4 base stocks and some correction fluid added plus additives to arrive at the finished product. A PAO fluid might be nine molacule chains to get any viscoity you want the size of the molacules is going to be based on raw materials and catalyst I think. A differnet base stock made from plant ester might be made from chaing of 18 molacule (just picked a number) and again I would imagine the size is dependent on raw material and catalyst etc... Not knowing the size of the molacules in my oil I can not say one way or another how it effects wear. I would imagine that wear rates could be more closely linked to the base stocks or finished product then moleculure size of the product.

I think the uniform nature of synthetics is why the out perform conventional oil in some tests. Haveing all kinds of different sized molacules running around is no good better to limit the size and shape to what you want! DO you realise that multi-viscosity oils are compressable? In EP situations they can become incredable dense and act almost like a solid. Good thing we have NoTDC,Antimony,ZDDP,Calcium etc.....

I hope I made sense.

 

[Blue99]

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DO you realise that multi-viscosity oils are compressable? In EP situations they can become incredable dense and act almost like a solid.

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JB, I think you are taking us for a ride on this one...

One of the principles of fluid mechanics & modern hydraulics is that liquids, particularly water & hydrocarbon based fluids, are basically non-compressible.

Some motor oils are used in off-road hydraulic applications & I just noticed today, that Esso XD-3, 0w30 is rated for hydraulic use.

At higher pressures, I think the rule of thumb is that the fluid will compress 1% in volume for every 100 bar.

So at 1450 psi, 1 quart of multi-viscosity oil would compress to 31.7 ounces, with 0.3 oz being a relatively insignificant amount.

 

[Whimsey]

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Originally posted by JohnBrowning:
Notice that Shell does not recomend the 0W20 for daily drivers!!! It does kind of say that the 0W40 is ok for daily drivers!

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Could it be that THIS particular Shell 0W-20 was developed for "Motorsport use only" as stated in the article

. It probably doesn't have the detergents necessary for street OCI's. I assume that in Motorsports the oil is changed after every event. But it's ok John, we know your "love" of 20 wt oils and what you think of them.

.

Whimsey

 

[JohnBrowning]

First guys I was not talking about all 20Wt.s I was Quoteing SHell. If you re-read what Shell said about the their 20Wt. you will see that they(Shell) do not recomend it for use in daily drivers. It has nothing to do with it being a 20Wt. I was pointing out what Shell said about their own product!!!!!!!!

Second only newtonian fluids are non-compressable! Multi-Viscosity oils are not newtonian fluids and are compressable.

427Z06 preety much sumed up my thoughts on this. Who is going to measure their finished oil? How do you know what fluids were blended and what their origanal moleculare size was? How would you ever corralate the different parts of the oil to wear? No finished multi-viscosity oil has molacules of the same sive and only one size. I might be wrong so we might need to get Molakule to chime in on this one!!

 

[AEHaas]

Oil can be compressed and can and does act as a solid. It may be this "solid" oil that is responsible for the production of large chucks of metal that get trapped in the oil filter.

It is one of the mechanisms that I believe results in higher wear in oils that are too thick for a particular application.

aehaas

 

[427Z06]

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Originally posted by AEHaas:
Oil can be compressed and can and does act as a solid. It may be this "solid" oil that is responsible for the production of large chucks of metal that get trapped in the oil filter.

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I'm not so sure "acting like a solid" is a bad thing. Think amorphous diamond thin-film coatings used to reduce the friction and wear of sliding parts.

 

[JohnBrowning]

427Z06, Normaly you would see an oil act like a solid in the valve train area, in a ring and pinion etc.... Now the thiner the oil I would imagine the great the chances of the oil acting as a solid. I might be completly wrong on this so Molacule and Teryy feel free to jump on in and correct me!!! It might just as easily be linked to the amount of VII's I just do not know? Now if you have enough AW additives like ZDDP, MoTDC, Boron etc.... they should proctect you from this as much as if the film ruptured and parts touched!

I would rather run one grade higher then I need then risk full catastrphic failure under slight over heat situation, air filter failure, sudden extreme unexpected loading etc...Prepare for the worst hope for the best!! So long as you oil is not so thick for the ambient temp. that you risk oil flow issues all is well! If one selects the minium protection needed then you have no margin for error!

 

[427Z06]

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Originally posted by AEHaas:
I am one of those who believes that a single type, size of oil molecule is not the best, that a mixtures of different length oil molecules may be better.

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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but aren't we talking about something in the size range of 5 nanometers? I would think the actual properties of the fluid are more important than pulling out your ruler and measuring the size distribution of the molecules.