Service tech's comments on Vista, processors, RAM

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Just got my ancient Dell upgraded to 512 MB RAM, the maximum the board would hold, and an 80 GB hard drive. It had 192 MB RAM and (sitting down?) a 10 GB hard drive for XP Pro (hey, the computer was a gift).
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Had hoped for at least 1 GB RAM, but had to settle for this. The computer was in the shop for nearly a month waiting on the RAM sticks (SDRAM), and the service tech said he's been having a lot of problems with back orders and incorrect memory shipments. (He also said that my computer originally had Windows 98, so it's o-l-d.) He thinks the huge memory requirements for Vista and certain XP applications are to blame for the supply problems. He ran into several problems with incompatible memory sticks, so I'm glad the tech handled this and not myself ($$$).

The tech said he had a system running Vista at home for gaming and for familiarity with the new system. His view is that Vista is slow and it blows. This seems to be what most reviewers are saying about Vista too, not to mention other threads in this section here on BITOG. I had toyed with getting a new computer, but he said for what I was doing I was better off to stay with what I have for now, since it runs well and I'm using an excellent anti-virus and -spyware package.

He pointed out a few things some of you might not realize. I knew that the 386 and 486 processors from way back could address a total of 4 GB of RAM, so I asked him what the Pentium III and Pentium 4 could address. He said that in a normal computer such as most of us would use at home and in a small business, it's still 4 GB. In certain applications with coprocessors and other fancy bells and whistles 16 GB becomes the limit. But he also mentioned that the most the standard Windows operating system can address is also 4 GB!

Now keep in mind that Vista requires 512 MB or 1 GB of RAM, depending on the version, and the consensus seems to be that you should double those figures for the system to run decently. That's a pretty large percentage of the total RAM the system can address. The tech attributed the increased RAM requirements for Vista to "bloat": he believes that the differences between Vista and XP don't justify the extra memory requirements. You have to wonder, though: are new processors and a new OS that can use more RAM in the pipeline?

It also seems that today's programmers simply don't know how to conserve memory. I speak as a former recreational programmer who learned many tricks in BASIC and machine code to conserve memory on the home systems of the 1980s such as the Commodore and the Sinclair computers that allowed you a maximum of 64K RAM with a Zilog Z80 chip. You would be surprised at what was possible on those machines with such limits using creative programming techniques. There seems to be little justification today for each new OS to require double—or more—the memory of the previous OS. Microsoft's people need to learn this.

Now wait—it gets better. Ha ha. The tech said that he can't simply install additional new generic memory in these newer systems as he did on my computer. As a general rule, these new computers require Microsoft registered memory, and the system won't recognize unregistered generic memory! Another way for Bill Gates to make more $$$.

Guess I'll keep what I have for now.
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By the way, one of the wholesale clubs out my way still had systems with XP on the shelf. Check those places if you want a new computer at a good price but want to avoid Vista. Wally's World out here has nothing but Vista systems in stock now. Looks as if Vista ain't worth it.
 
There's really no reason to avoid Vista on a pre-made PC. All of the issues seem to arise from people who attempt to upgrade older PCs. Been there, done that. Experience has taught me that purchasing a new computer with the latest operating system pre-loaded is your best bet. All of the testing has been done for you.

The same people who think VISTA isn't worth it are the same naysayers of XP five years ago. Heck, and they are now running XP themselves.
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My experience has consistently shown that XP runs rather poorly with less than 1GB of ram, at least for what I use it for.

Much of my programming experience is on processors and microcontrollers with 64kB of RAM or often much less, so I have an appreciation for small memory systems as well. Many windows programmers would be slack-jawed if they knew what I could do on an 8051 with 64k of FLASH and 64k of SRAM in assembly language or C. Well written code on these tiny 8-bitters can do real-time tasks that a 3GHz Windows PC with 1GB of RAM will struggle to keep up with reliably, while using sub-50MHz clocks and many orders of magnitude less power. I've also written code for the PIC, 68HC11, and AVR.

Lately I've gotten to know a recent comp sci grad, top of his class. His lack of understanding of low-level computer architecture and coding is somewhat disturbing. It's not that he couldn't understand it, he could without much effort, it's that it simply isn't taught at the universities. If it isn't written in Java or C# he doesn't seem to know about it. I was taught by starting in assembly and moving upward through higher level languages. Coding a PC in assembly is something I hope to never relive though, unless I'm paid buckets of money.

2^32 = 4GB i.e. the 4GB limit originates from 32 bit addressing.

I always like to be well after the beta testing curve with microsofts products. I'll adopt Vista when I replace my current PC or when I'm forced to by compatibility issues. I'm currently looking to buy a new garage PC and one for my kids, I'll be looking for used machines with XP Pro.
 
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All of the testing has been done for you.



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On the contrary, YOU are a tester. I prefer to at least wait for a service pack to come out.



I do agree though, upgrading the OS on dated hardware is usually not wise.
 
Well, OK, to an extent perhaps.

But it is better than you, Joe Blow consumer, installing Vista on your homemade PC. There's a better chance of the OEM install being stable and successful compared to yours, since your homemade PC's configuration hasn't been "tested" on a large scale basis for compatibility and durability on the Vista platform.
 
I agree with you, and this is one reason I buy pre-made PC's rather than building them myself, which I did at one time. I think the value of a pre-made PC is at least that of a homemade PC when one looks at the big picture.
 
Let me note that I had no interest in trying to put Vista or, for that matter, a newer version of XP on this old thing. It was just that I had heard so much bad about Vista that I wanted the tech's take on it.

The computer ran acceptably on 192 MB of RAM even with Windows XP Pro. But at times it was slow, and it wasn't hard to figure out that more RAM would help. It does—a lot. Of course, as alluded to above, a 10 GB hard drive is a joke, but it did do the job until I got something better.

Had not thought of the 32-bit architecture as the limiting factor. If, say, a 64-bit architecture replaces it as would seem likely as the next possible power of 2 for processors, the potential RAM limit will be (4 GB) squared, or 16 EB (exabytes)—16 x 10 to the 18th power, or in actual numbers about 18.4 quintillion bytes (US usage). That should suffice for a few years.
 
what the tech said about M$ registered memory is a bunch of #@$%!. Microsoft does not make the hardware, and any "requirements" for memory by the motherboard manufacturer are generally guidelines and a list of memory that has been tested for stability under "relaxed" latency timings.

any memory designed for that type of system will work as long as its not #@$%! chips or has some sort of design "abnormalities" that make it either unstable or incompatible.

32-bit operating systems can actually support more than 4GB or memory using NUMA and PAE on supported hardware, and current 64-bit systems can use up to 2TB

as for Vista... for those who want to use it now, i will be grateful if they leave error reporting on, so there will be more bugs fixed in the first service pack!
 
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32-bit operating systems can actually support more than 4GB or memory using NUMA and PAE on supported hardware, and current 64-bit systems can use up to 2TB




Of course, nearly any architecture can be expanded using paged addressing techniques provided the hardware and/or software is developed to support it. These extensions often slow things down* though as multiple accesses may be required when changing pages.


* from a physical memory access standpoint only, the system may actually be faster due to reduced use of the page file.
 
The bottom line:

Vista is Microsoft's gift to PC manufacturers for continued use of Windows.

PS IS That MS registered memory thing true? I think BillionPa covered that.

PSS How much does a PC shop charge for that sort of thing? I've never taken a PC to a shop. I've built several PC's in the past, so I guess that's why. (I just get stuck on stupid software/networking stuff anymore, because I don't have the time - but you guys give me the answers for cheap!)
 
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Of course, as alluded to above, a 10 GB hard drive is a joke, but it did do the job until I got something better.




The main problem with a drive like that is not the capacity (I'm only using 4GB of the 80GB drive in this laptop that I de-installed Vista on), but the speed. It's probably not a 7200RPM drive, and believe me the difference between a 5400RPM drive and a 7200RPM drive is quite noticeable.

My mom's computer used to have a 15GB Quantum hard drive. It was slow and I couldn't figure out why, until I finally managed to find the specs on the Quantum drive. It's a 4400RPM drive...and I really had to dig to get that information. Everything else referred to it as a "sub 7200RPM" drive. (Why someone would make a 4400RPM 15GB drive is beyond me, but I can see why they tried to hide it).

I bought a left-over 30GB 7200RPM drive and used Acronis True Image to copy the old drive onto the new one--the computer is MUCH faster with the newer drive. I also changed it from FAT32 to NTFS which also made a bit of a speed improvement too.

It's a PII400 with 288MB of RAM. All she uses it for is for web browsing, and for that it works fine. The peak commit charge rarely exceeds the amount of physical ram, so putting more memory in wouldn't likely make much difference.
 
Just about anything capable of running XP should be capable of ATA4 (UDMA 33) as a minimum. For a 7200RPM drive, I doubt UDMA 66 would offer any performance advantages.

(The 440LX and 440BX chipsets both support UDMA 33 and I got quite a speed boost by enabling UDMA support in Linux on the servers with those motherboard chipsets...that was with 5400RPM drives no less).
 
This topic thread wouldn't be complete without this link:

Windows Vista Compatible Logo: Good For Nothing
http://blogs.pcworld.com/techlog/archives/003769.html

Yes, folks, that does say that a PC that meets the conditions to be marketed as Windows Vista Capable may be a swell Vista system...as long as you don't try to run any programs on it. ("Great for...Booting the Operating System, without running any applications or games.")
 
For what you paid to upgrade that "Free" PC, you could have bought the $300 special at Best Buy or Walmart and had a lot faster machine for the money. Just mu 2 cents.
 
I am a computer enthusiast. I was enthusiastic about upgrading to Windows XP when it debuted. However, from what I have read from the enthusiast community, particularly those portions of it that tested Vista and submitted bug reports to Microsoft, is that Windows Vista is an unfinished beta operating system. I do not advise upgrading to it; I would not touch it with a ten foot pole.

After Microsoft committed to releasing Vista in December to its enterprise customers (all of whom will not upgrade to it for another year or two anyway) and to us this month, bug reports started being marked as unreproducible without any attempt to communicate with the tester who submitted the report. Prior to this, Microsoft had communicated back and forth with testers and Microsoft was in many cases able to reproduce and fix bugs; Microsoft clearly ignored bug reports, and while Microsoft has released Windows Vista, many of the testers stated that Windows Vista needed an additional year of development when the Microsoft's commitment to what became Windows Vista's release schedule was announced. Furthermore, while many believe Microsoft spent 5 years working on Vista, in the middle of 2004, Microsoft restarted development of Windows Vista from scratch. Therefore, while many believe that Windows Vista received five years of development, it only received two and a half.

If I was to upgrade to Windows Vista, I would wait until Service Pack 2 is released; however, two years from now Microsoft will be releasing Windows Blackcomb, which unlike Windows Vista, is less ambitious and it is therefore set in a realistic time frame, such that it will be released as a finished operating system. Service Packs for Microsoft operating systems are typically released once a year after an operating system is released, so Windows Blackcomb's timeframe makes it possible (and perhaps advisable) to bypass Windows Vista entirely. This is what I plan to do. My advice to anyone who is thinking of upgrading to Windows Vista is to do the same.
 
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Windows Vista is an unfinished beta operating system




All Microsoft products are released at the beta stage IMHO. They have an enthusiastic "testing" community that will eagerly pay for buggy code and test it for them, why shouldn't they do things this way?
 
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