Schaeffer 7000 5W20 7,700 miles Honda Odyssey V6

[TrailRunner]

Year: 2004
Make: Honda
Engine: 3.5L V6
Miles in service: 44,000
OCI: 7,700
Oil: Schaeffer Supreme 7000 5W20
Oil Filter: Honda (Filtech)
Air Filter: Honda (Filtech 11,500 miles)
Oil analysis through dysonanalysis.com.

Terry's report was very helpful. We're working to resolve the high fuel diluton that Honda V6s have.

I found out the oil is holding up very, very well and the engine is in excellent condition. I use a semi synthetic blend called Supreme 7000 by a little known petroleum company called Schaeffer's Oil. (I use the 5W20 weight - my Honda service manager said that weight is fine.)

It turns out that many of the wear indicators were very low even after 7,700 miles. The limiting factor at this point is a problem that the Honda V6 engines have with fuel dilution. My oil had a 1.45% fuel dilution rate in it. The fuel breaks down oil. But, the Schaeffer oil was still doing very, very well. For example, the viscosity was unchanged. No change at all.

And, if I can reduce the fuel dilution and improve the oil filtration, I may be able to extend the oil service out to 15,000 or 20,000 miles. The oil will provide full protection, if the fuel dilution is reduced. At this point, the cost of the extend oil change, including the oil analysis, is about the same as changing oil every 3,000 miles. If I can extend it further, I will come out ahead.

The fuel dilution problem is apparently due to the fact that the Honda engine management over enriches the air fuel mixture when there is airflow restriction in the air filter. Basically, the air filter media should be changed every 10,000 miles. It was recommended by Terry Dyson that I regap the spark plugs. I chose to put in NGK Iridium plugs. That was an excellent choice I believe. It appears that the throttle response is improved, the engine appears more powerful. I'll watch the mileage to know for sure.

I have replaced the air filter, changed the plugs, and now I'll put a new batch of Schaeffer Supreme 7000 in, with an AmsOil oil filter. At 8,000 miles I'll do the oil analysis again and see whether the fuel dilution has been corrected.

Iron 10
Copper 21
Tin 0
Lead 0
Chromium 1
Nickel 0
Aluminum 3
Titanium 0
Silver 0
Calcium 1907
Magnesium 10
Zinc 985
Phosphorus 749
Barium 1
Molybdenum 235
Ant imony 0
Silicon 11
Sodium 79
Boron 8
Potassium 0
Vanadium 0
TAN 1.50
Oxidat ion 19
Nit rat ion 11
Water (KF - ppm) 387
TBN 2.8
Soot 0
Glycol/Coolant 0
Viscosity Index 148
Sulfate Byproducts 24

L U B E C O N D I T I O N
Viscosity 40C/100C (cSt ) (40C) 49.3 - SAE 20W, (100C) 8.5
TAN 1.50
Oxidat ion 19
Nit rat ion 11
Water (KF - ppm) 387
TBN 2.8
Fuel 241
Soot 0
Glycol/Coolant 0
Viscosity Index 148
Sulfate Byproducts 24

 

[lindermant]

interesting - a snippet from my '04 Ody UOA:

unit miles: 30,016 miles
oil miles: 5,954 miles
Havoline 5w-20 SM/GF-4
OEM Filtech oil filter
OEM Filtech air filter (in service for 14,573 miles)
fuel = http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post742982

I'm curious, did you get your oil up to operating temp (15+ mile drive) before sampling?

*edited air filter service mileage

 

[Pablo]

Another comparison:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/s...true#Post748201

 

[Mokanic]

I don't think there is another oil out there that offers as much as Schaeffer 7000 does for the money. It consistantly acts like a 6$ a qt. full synthetic.
My two Hondas love it and can turn in 10K intervals easily. I stopped using a full PAO oil that was costing me 6.81 qt. and can buy the 7000 blend for 3.25qt. delivered to my shop.I don't know how far the 7000 would go in my Hondas but i'm tickled with 10K intervals given my driving habits.
I bet anyone using M1 that would try the 7000 blend would be really surprized to see the results. I would not have believed it had I not tried it myself. I love the stuff and the character of the company that produces it.

 

[Al]

Terry is the best. Considering the fuel in here the report is still excellent. I shudder to think how good it would have been with no fuel dilution.

Honestly I think you are making a mistake trying to get more than 10K miles out of this oil. It doesn't really make sense. The only safe way to do it is to do an analysis at 10K and for the cost of that you can dump the oil and put in fresh.

 

[Norm Olt]

IMHO approaching 8-10K OCI's with any semi-synthetic blend and this kind of report is quite an accomplishment.

Even though a lot of manufacturers WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE that "THEIR proprietary oil life monitoring system" will adequately protect YOUR car, IMHO they are more concerned about being able to MARKET the concepts of "our lower maintenance costs=higher maintenance intervals" (or, vice-versa?) and couldn't care less what happens to you (or the next owner, or owners) once their FACTORY warranty has expired.

Along the lines of trying to get those "100,000 mile sparkplugs) out of an aluminum head!

I would be pretty happy with 8-10K OCI's and wouldn't try to push beyond it: sure, you could go to the point where you were using 100% synthetic, had a separate aftermarket by-pass filter, OA's every 7,500 miles, etc. and run the oil forever (almost?)... But why?

Cheers!

 

[Mokanic]

True,so very true...

 

[427Z06]

Quote:

---

My oil had a 1.45% fuel dilution rate in it. The fuel breaks down oil. But, the Schaeffer oil was still doing very, very well. For example, the viscosity was unchanged. No change at all.

---

Here's a misconception I see repeated by a large number of people.

It's not that fuel dilution at these levels are changing the viscosity of the oil as a whole. Fuel dilution viscosity effects at the piston/piston ring/cylinder wall are much more severe since your combining just a thin oil film with fuel from the intake charge. In other parts of the engine, like the bearings, numerous other effects are at play, rather than a loss of viscosity. In both cases, until you reach really high levels of fuel dilution, changing the viscosity of your oil doesn't significantly help.

In any event, looks like this oil did as well or better than many high priced synthetics. And I like buying products from a company with both integrity and scruples. How many other publish their API test results?

Looks like Terry has these Honda V6's nailed. Excellent bang for your buck consulting fee.

 

[buster]

Quote:

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And I like buying products from a company with both integrity and scruples. How many other publish their API test results?

---

Looks like you'll be buying Schaeffer's then bc no other company I know publishes this type of information. Great product, from a great company.

 

[427Z06]

Quote:

---

IMHO approaching 8-10K OCI's with any semi-synthetic blend and this kind of report is quite an accomplishment.

Even though a lot of manufacturers WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE that "THEIR proprietary oil life monitoring system" will adequately protect YOUR car, IMHO they are more concerned about being able to MARKET the concepts of "our lower maintenance costs=higher maintenance intervals" (or, vice-versa?) and couldn't care less what happens to you (or the next owner, or owners) once their FACTORY warranty has expired.

Along the lines of trying to get those "100,000 mile sparkplugs) out of an aluminum head!

I would be pretty happy with 8-10K OCI's and wouldn't try to push beyond it: sure, you could go to the point where you were using 100% synthetic, had a separate aftermarket by-pass filter, OA's every 7,500 miles, etc. and run the oil forever (almost?)... But why?

Cheers!

---

What's wrong with Honda's maintenace recommendation here given this UOA? It may not be "perfect", whatever that might be, but I bet this engine will far outlast the rest of the vehicle.

 

[wgtoys]

"a lot of manufacturers WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE that "THEIR proprietary oil life monitoring system" "

You might be unfairly maligning Honda here. The oil life monitor in my 4 cylinder Acura is indicating that the oil needs to be changed around every 8k miles with my driving style. The old version pre oil life monitor had a recommendation of 5k miles for severe service and 10k miles for normal service. It doesn't seem like the Honda/Acura oil life monitor is being overly optimistic. Our '03 Honda is a V-6 without the oil life monitor and the book calls for 3,750 miles severe service or 7,500 normal service intervals. It is interesting that Honda calls for more frequent oil changes with their V-6 than they do for the four banger.

 

[TeeDub]

One thing to note is that partially combusted fuel does act as a catalyst for the process of oil oxidation, ie it speeds up the reaction rate. So all things being equal, the more fuel you have in the oil, the more quickly it will degrade.

The other thing to understand is that you can reach an equilibrium level of fuel dilution very quickly, certainly within 1000-1500 miles. Once you reach that point the fuel that is evaporating out of the crankcase (and combining with the engine oil to form insoluble polymers), balances out the raw fuel that is getting into the crankcase. You could run this oil until the cows come home and never see fuel dilution above this 1.45% level, for example.

Based on this one analysis, you will be limited to a maximum OCI of approx 10,000 miles with this engine/oil combination.
The baseline TBN of the excellent Schaeffers oils simply isn't that high to start with and you can and will get corrosive wear if you overextend the OCI. Yes you can play around with adding LC20 at regular intervals. However, LC20 is really more effective at mitigating oxidative thickening, rather than stabilizing the TBN. In fact all the data I've seen over the last several years would indicate it has NO effect on the rate of TBN depletion.

TD

 

[JAG]

Quote:

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However, LC20 is really more effective at mitigating oxidative thickening, rather than stabilizing the TBN. In fact all the data I've seen over the last several years would indicate it has NO effect on the rate of TBN depletion.

---

I agree from what I've seen too. That's probably why many people say it does nothing because they are looking for improved TBN retention and not seeing it.

 

[427Z06]

Quote:

---

One thing to note is that partially combusted fuel does act as a catalyst for the process of oil oxidation, ie it speeds up the reaction rate. So all things being equal, the more fuel you have in the oil, the more quickly it will degrade.

---

Yes, oil degradation effects of fuel dilution are significant as you eloquently describe, but not, as many assume, due primarily to changes is viscosity.

 

[Gene K]

Did you switch to a Fram Air Filter? I know Terry seems to prefer them to the factory elements in the Hondas.

Does anyone know how to compare a Dyson Analysis TBN to a Blackstone Analysis TBN?
Is a DA 2.8 TBN the same as a BSA 0.8 TBN? If so that would make me a bit nervous.

 

[TeeDub]

The general rule of thumb is that if TAN > TBN, it's time to change the oil. In this case the TBN is 2.8 and the TAN is only 1.5, so you have some margin of safety here - but not a lot. Hence my previous comment about a 10k max OCI, based on this one set of data....

TD

 

[Tones]

In the past, Schaeffers oils have always performed quite well in fuel dilution scenarios. It is nice to see this new formula perform this well.

 

[The Critic]

Quote:

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You might be unfairly maligning Honda here. The oil life monitor in my 4 cylinder Acura is indicating that the oil needs to be changed around every 8k miles with my driving style. The old version pre oil life monitor had a recommendation of 5k miles for severe service and 10k miles for normal service. It doesn't seem like the Honda/Acura oil life monitor is being overly optimistic. Our '03 Honda is a V-6 without the oil life monitor and the book calls for 3,750 miles severe service or 7,500 normal service intervals. It is interesting that Honda calls for more frequent oil changes with their V-6 than they do for the four banger.

---

Yep. In fact, I'm seeing that many of the Honda V6 engines equipped with the Maintenance Minder to be requiring more frequent service than under the old, "fixed" interval system. I'm seeing more of these engines call for a service at around 6k miles and they are being operated under the same conditions that would've previously required a service every 7500 mi. Even the Maintenance Minder is now calling for an ATF change every 60-65k in the TL as opposed to 120k before...the new Civic equipped with the ATF OLM in addition to the Engine Oil OLM will be interesting.

 

[martyi]

Quote:

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Quote:

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You might be unfairly maligning Honda here. The oil life monitor in my 4 cylinder Acura is indicating that the oil needs to be changed around every 8k miles with my driving style. The old version pre oil life monitor had a recommendation of 5k miles for severe service and 10k miles for normal service. It doesn't seem like the Honda/Acura oil life monitor is being overly optimistic. Our '03 Honda is a V-6 without the oil life monitor and the book calls for 3,750 miles severe service or 7,500 normal service intervals. It is interesting that Honda calls for more frequent oil changes with their V-6 than they do for the four banger.

---

Yep. In fact, I'm seeing that many of the Honda V6 engines equipped with the Maintenance Minder to be requiring more frequent service than under the old, "fixed" interval system. I'm seeing more of these engines call for a service at around 6k miles and they are being operated under the same conditions that would've previously required a service every 7500 mi. Even the Maintenance Minder is now calling for an ATF change every 60-65k in the TL as opposed to 120k before...the new Civic equipped with the ATF OLM in addition to the Engine Oil OLM will be interesting.

---

I agree. My V6 Honda Ridgeline which I purchased in May '05, has had two oil service notices come on - the first at around 6,000 miles and the last one at 12,500 miles. I would bet that from now on every 6,000-7,000 miles will trigger the OLM to display the service due notice.

This notice comes on when the oil life expectancy hits 15%. You could actually go further down to '0%' before you get a past due notice. However, my UOA showed a TBN of about 1.2 at 15% and that is pretty much at the limit of where I want to go (I use Havoline dino 5w20). But what that does tell me is that the OLM is pretty darn accurate and a good indicator of when the OCIs should occur.

I should point out that at one of the Ridgeline forums, the members are reporting anywhere between 5,000-7,500 OCIs based on the OLM, at least for this motor. But keep in mind that some of these trucks do a lot of towing and the OLM measures engine load as well as things like engine revs and temps. Most Honda cars will not be towing and experience the kinds of loads a truck might have.

It may not be perfect but I think going by the OLM is a pretty safe bet and sure makes more sense than some arbitrary figure pulled out of the air or from Jiffy Lube windshield sticker like X number of miles or X number of months which is suppose to work for every car and every driver under every normal driving condition (severe driving conditions are of course something else again).

 

[HondaMan]

TrailRunner,

Did you in fact take this UOA cold?

I ask because the last two samples I sent Terry where from a cold engine and I showed the same problem on my 05 Odyssey (1.6% fuel dilution on far less miles)