Saab 900T - high metals damage - how bad is this?

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One source says that this turbo uses bronze sleeves. I've read that 'copper is the principle metallurgical component of brass and bronze'.

Does that infer that elevated copper means that bronze is wearing?
 
Bronze is about 95% copper (the remainder is zinc and tin).

Copper is usually from bearings, bushings, and/or valve guides. Of course, with coolant in the oil, you could also be picking up copper from the radiator.
 
believe con-rod bearing failure in progress. will likely get a used or rebuilt engine
 
The metals are high, but not would I would call alarming. You can definitely improve these results and I would definitely look into further.

Dave from Redline told me awhile back that one of the racing teams that uses their oils sent them a sample right after they blew the engine apart. He said you would never have known by the analysis that their was major engine component failures. The oil looked fine.
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I'd fix the coolant leak ASAP and maybe try a 5w-50 after that to make up for the excessive bearing wear. An AutoRX cleanout may be in order as well.

I have to say though, you best bet is a re-build engine at this point, given the damage I see here.

TS
 
quote:

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
LargeCarMan, I thought that too.

What are the turbo bearings made of?

Are they steel rollers in a steel housing?

--- Bror Jace


They are journal bearings, material could be different things.
 
quote:

Originally posted by LM:
believe con-rod bearing failure in progress. will likely get a used or rebuilt engine

What was the earlier comment on damage from low oil? Blackstone speculation or something the owner confessed to?
 
Exactly what I was thinking. How did this get off on the turbo? When the turbo goes on a saab, you'll know it.

Even so, I doubt you need to seek a rebuild (salvage would be better) at this point. At the very least I'd take a wait and see approach.
 
originally the alternator bushing where in really bad shape (amongst many other things!), and the alt was a rumbling, masking engine noise.

the saab has been taken to a mercedes/audi tech, for the knock noise, which to my understanding can be deceptive. tech (and me with a garden hose) thought knock was con-rod bearing. not too obvious at cold idle; gets to be a persisent deeper knock as engine warms up. going to redo cylinder isolation noise check. and will try to get it to an local indy that has a bit more experience with saabs (no local true saab tech). will try to better describe knock, load, no-load, etc, noise in better detail in future post

cost-wise, it's not too much more to get a semi-tested (albeit risky) used engine installed, vs having headgasket redone. have a good price on a high-quality rebuild on east US coast, but shipping is pretty costly to west US coast
 
sorry - only saw page 1 on last post.

low oil is speculation. the PCV valve was blown (so possibly main seal damage), altho top of engine had been recently degreased, there's more amounts of crudded on oil about and underneath than I ever seen on any other engine (in my limited experience). the oil warning lamp had been removed. the very rapid oil loss when engine/seals gets hot. i contributed to turbo diversion with curiousity of it's bronze bearings and the UOA - it will be checked for radial and axial play, etc. there is no start-up smoke, so maybe some hope.
 
camshaft lobe pics - hopefully viewable with right clicks on the dashes

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"Dave from Redline told me awhile back that one of the racing teams that uses their oils sent them a sample right after they blew the engine apart. He said you would never have known by the analysis that their was major engine component failures. The oil looked fine. [LOL!]"

I hope that from busters comment that RL/ Dave do not outright discount usefulness of Spectro UOA data? If so it would be amazingly ignorant for a maker of a fine lubricant. How long did the engine run after it failed? What failed? It is possible to have catastrophic failure with only minor elemental wear levels indicated so you have to know the metallurgy AND the chemistry used to gain insight into the engine condition. Using blanket thumb nail elementals levels of such and such does not work in the real world... For the hundreth time...
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Unless you know much more than what the basic UOA shows,the data is confusing and mostly miss interpreted. The commentary in this thread is consistent with that.

On the SAAB get a good interpretation of the engine instead of relying on lab techs who have little time to do in depth study of the results.

Long term high levels of fuel dilution has been and is a chronic issue for these engines and will destroy the rod end bearings, among other secondary problems.
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The opinions expressed on this message board are the personal opinions of Terry Dyson.
Dyson Analysis provides professional advice about the performance of specific lubricating oils as determined from spectral analysis of the used oil. This fee-based service is provided on a confidential basis to individuals and to corporate customers. While Dyson Analysis advises many large and small oil companies and additive makers, Terry Dyson and Dyson Analysis don’t accept any incentives, commissions or other inducements to endorse or promote any oil type, brand or additive product.

[ August 22, 2006, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Terry ]
 
Terry, all the more reason to use your service, that was my point!
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What Dave was saying, and what I poorly stated, was that you need someone that correctly interpret these reports. They do a lot of oil analysis in addition to feedback from engine tear downs.
 
LM, I genuinely wish I had seen this unit in analysis early on to warn about the mentioned suspects. Low oil level is not going to cause the bearing issues short term, fuel dilute will, even with a full sump/system. If the knocking is definitely internal to the block, and you can, pull it off the line and visually inspect before you do more damage.
 
I dunno. I went back and read your other thread and nothing really seems that out of the ordinary for an older Saab, to tell the truth. Well, the compression on cyl #2 was a little low, but...Only thing I could really say is pull the sump and see how gunked up the pickup is. The older Saabs did have larger mesh openings than the current ones but they still have been known to clog... I don't know if this is an oil starvation issue or not, though.

But Terry, is of course, right about fuel dilution. That's the problem with old turbo saabs. Just pick your problem and it's probably got it.
lol.gif
 
There is no true Saab tech locally. The engine is consistently knocking - a deeper sound that increases as the engine temp warms up. Originally thought to be con-rod bearing, but disconnecting individual fuel injector harnesses does little to assauge the noise. Conversely, disconnecting FI #1 increases the noise (possibly suggesting main bearing failure - the oil pressure light has showed the briefest of sustained flickering - a new occurrence). I've unsuccesslyf tried to mp3 record the noise, which is increasing under load, and strongest when feathering the throttle between 2.5 - 3.5K RPM. The car is being driven at a bare minimum (doctor's appts and food). Agreed that there is not enough good or consistent data available, nor has it been applied to the specific metallury of this engine. Seems best course, given overall circumstance, and cam wear pics, that a salvaged or rebuilt engine would be best financial course. Thanks for your comments
 
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