Rupes LHR 75E Mini RO Polisher - Thoughts

[The Critic]

Earlier this week, I was able to try out the new Rupes LHR 75E mini RO polisher at my friend's shop. I just wanted to provide a few quick thoughts in case anyone was considering this machine.

In short, this machine is a must-have if you are interested in polishing smaller panels with the highest precision and accuracy. The difference between using this machine and a conventional machine (i.e. Flex 3401) with a smaller backing plate, is that the head of the LHR 75E is much smaller. This allows you to attack certain areas more easily...especially the areas around the license plate and side mirrors.

Here are some areas that I used it on:

- front/rear bumpers
- B-pillars
- area around license plate
- area around side mirrors
- While I did not try it, I can see this machine being very effective for headlight restorations

In case you were wondering, there is no comparison between this machine and the Griots Garage 3". The Rupes LHR 75E has significantly more power, a larger throw (12mm vs 8mm) and much better NVH characteristics. I have used both machines and aside from cost, I see no reason to purchase the Griots.

There are two things that bother me about the machine, and both of them are related to the speed dial. First, speeds 1-3.5 all feel about the same. Luckily, there's rarely a reason to drop below speed 3.5 anyway. Second, while polishing, you have to change the speed by feel -- as you cannot see the speed dial. Neither of these are deal-breakers, but I expected better for a $300 machine.

Lastly, the 4" Rupes pads worked great with this machine. Like always, their yellow pad cuts and finishes extremely well, and it was no exception when paired with this machine. I was finishing with Menzerna SF4000 (after compounding with M205, more on that later) and found that the machine broke down the polish a bit quicker than expected. I did not find any issues with pad rotation, but you do need to cognizant of keeping the machine flat on the surface (as you should be anyway).

Overall, I highly recommend this machine to anyone who's interested in doing a more careful and thorough job of polishing their vehicle. A small polisher is sometimes a must for small areas in order to prevent damage to adjacent trim. Now I just need to convince myself that I need another $300 polisher in my toolbox.

 

[Rolla07]

Since you do alot of detailing, have you ever used the cheapie harbor freight DA polisher? I know you typically go for good quality DA's but curious on your thoughts.

 

[JHZR2]

So it's smaller. If you're a shop, that may make a difference with getting stuff done faster, but otherwise, why not just do those areas by hand? Consistency or the amount of agitation/work you can do? What about spreading product all over seals and between panels?

The poster above mentioned HF but what about this vs a higher quality item like the PC?

 

[Nyati]

Is this a forced rotation polisher like the Flex?

 

[The Critic]

While I have never used the HF DA, I have been told that it compares very favorably with the Griots Garage DA.

Hand polishing the smaller areas may not always be a viable solution, especially if you are trying to remove moderate-severe defects. Polishes and compounds, especially diminishing ones, need to be broken-down by machine in order to function properly.

All of the Rupes polishers are long/large stroke, free-spinning DA polishers. None of them are forced-rotation.

 

[The Critic]

Bump.

Any LHR75E owners out there?

 

[genynnc]

Originally Posted By: The Critic

Overall, I highly recommend this machine to anyone who's interested in doing a more careful and thorough job of polishing their vehicle. A small polisher is sometimes a must for small areas in order to prevent damage to adjacent trim. Now I just need to convince myself that I need another $300 polisher in my toolbox.

Interesting, thanks for your review.

Can you put any downward pressure on this unit? Usually A pillars and 'smaller' areas have more features, body lines, radius... that you need to put a bit of downward pressure on to get the pad to conform.

Also, how 'flexible' is the Rupes BP for this unit? Is it hard like the 15/12?

I haven't moved away from my HF unit with 3" pads... plenty powerful enough to put downward pressure to get a foam pad to conform to smaller area's shapes.

I have a Rupes 21... so far it's ok. Not quite the machine is was billed as... but that was a lot of hype to live up to. I got mine for a smoking deal... so I'm not concerned about the realized performance. IMO- it doesn't cut/ correct that quickly... but it does perform very well at refining/ polishing.



Originally Posted By: Rolla07
Since you do alot of detailing, have you ever used the cheapie harbor freight DA polisher? I know you typically go for good quality DA's but curious on your thoughts.


I have two. One with a 5" backing plate & one with a 3" backing plate. Great power. Great value. Keep track of the replacement brushes that come with the unit... you'll need them eventually.

Originally Posted By: Nyati
Is this a forced rotation polisher like the Flex?

No

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: genynnc

Interesting, thanks for your review.

Can you put any downward pressure on this unit? Usually A pillars and 'smaller' areas have more features, body lines, radius... that you need to put a bit of downward pressure on to get the pad to conform.

Also, how 'flexible' is the Rupes BP for this unit? Is it hard like the 15/12?

I haven't moved away from my HF unit with 3" pads... plenty powerful enough to put downward pressure to get a foam pad to conform to smaller area's shapes.

I have a Rupes 21... so far it's ok. Not quite the machine is was billed as... but that was a lot of hype to live up to. I got mine for a smoking deal... so I'm not concerned about the realized performance. IMO- it doesn't cut/ correct that quickly... but it does perform very well at refining/ polishing.


The rotation "issue" still exists, but it is less prevalent than on the 21. I ran into the rotation issue a lot more when I was really new to the machine, but as time progressed, it became less of an issue. You really have to adjust your technique to be more cognizant of the areas that may pose a challenge.

From my experience, the 21 works best with a lighter pad. For instance, the 21 has zero rotation issues with the Meguiars DA microfiber discs and the B&S pads.

I am surprised to hear that you find the Rupes to be merely average in terms of cutting. Have you tried yours with the MF cutting discs and M101 or FG400?

 

[genynnc]

Thanks for your comment(s) Critic.

And none the of the following is addressed directly to you... it's just my gut feelings on things, so don't take it the wrong way. I mean no qualm or ill feelings!

In my mind, a lot of the detailing community is stuck in 'group think' on the line of Rupes machines. While it is easy to point out that one's technique needs to be adjusted to address the 'rotation' issue... it goes beyond that. I understand that NO pressure is needed with the machines.

BUT, pressure can add surface area to foam pads on a less-than-flat surface when riding on a non-rigid/ less-rigid backing plate. With Rupes machines, if I'm on a non-flat surface... I can't apply pressure for a host of reasons. Thus, I'm making more section passes because the diameter of contact of the pad with the paint is 'smaller'.

Is it a big deal? Not to everyone... but it is to me. I want the job done in the most efficient manner because there are always places/areas/problems that come up during a detail that you didn't account for.


Regarding my original comment on the 21,; I might not have 'been fair' concerning the Rupes 21.

Comparing it to a traditional D/A it cuts VERY well.

I just kept reading how it was equal to a rotary, in terms of cutting... and spoke to quite a few 'big time' detailers in person and on the phone who said the same thing.

Only 1 gave me indication that 'it was no rotary'.


So, I would revise my statement to say- It can/ does save time and it is a great D/A, BUT it will not replace your other machines. Better put- you can't just buy this machine and expect it to have a comparative advantage over everything else. It has it's place... but other machines do also.

Yes, I have quite a few Meg's MF pads and D300, M100, M101, HD Cut... tried M100 & D300 so far w/ the 21... it cuts good for swirls and finishes extremely well. But again, I find it faster to knock out the RDS with wool/rotary and refine with the Rupes/orange/compound... than just cutting with a 21/MF/Compound.

I know you were exploring the rotary a while ago... have you been using it lately?

Believe me man, get your confidence up with a rotary... it will change your world. You'll be looking at cars and instead of thinking 25- 30 hours... it will be 18- 20 (for HEAVY corrections.)

Let us know when you pick up that 75!

The Rupes machine that I probably should have purchased was the 12E... now that machine looks like something that would have really filled a niche in my tools.

 

[The Critic]

I do not know what the official position is, but I think light pressure is still advised by Rupes.

I have found that the amount of pressure you can use will vary depending on the pad. If it's a stiffer pad, it does not take much pressure to stop the rotation. On certain pads, such as the Rupes yellow polishing pads, I use them damp for this very reason.

If you have not done the washer mod, I highly recommend it.

But in regards to pressure, I rarely use more than medium pressure due to the heat and hazing issues. I sometime wonder if the large throw is responsible for the hazing, as it seems to be a bit more prevalent with this machine compared to the Flex. Additionally, I stopped going above speed 4.5 and found that I got a better finish -- and with minimal impact on performance.

I think you may be experiencing the same frustrations that I had with the machine when I first started using it. I had a lot of issues with pad rotation (marking the backing plate with a sharpie helps), needing more passes, poor correction, etc.

But over time, I've learned to do a pass where 1/2 of the pass contacts a raised/curvy area, and this eliminates the need to put pressure on the pad for conformity. After some adjustment of technique, I'm not finding a time disadvantage with the Rupes. I know it sounds ridiculous, but if you adjust your technique with the Rupes, it does seem to allow you to finish the car with fewer finishing steps.

I am rather surprised that you are finding a rotary to be faster...for the average detail. From what you describe, wool/compound/rotary is usually going to need two additional steps of refinement...and if it is very soft paint, then you may need more. What kind of paints are you working on that are requiring you to reach for that combo?

Both at my friend's shop and from my personal experience so far, it's extremely rare that we need to reach for wool on the rotary. The Rupes 21, MF cutting discs and FG400 or M101 takes care of even the nastiest defects on most paints with relative ease. I am not sure what your arm speed and work area are, but I stick to a 1'x1' area and less than a 1" per second arm speed with the Rupes when I am removing defects.

I have not had any time to use the rotary, but I will get to it sometime. It does make for a good $350 pad dryer though, LOL! Maybe I need to drive down to your shop and get some rotary lessons from you.

 

[genynnc]

Good insights.

I'll try the 1'x 1' section with the 21.

I get a lot of domestic 3/4 ton diesel truck and that are generally hammered! (Owners usually hunt out of them).

So, a lot of hard clear.

But yes, at least 2 additional steps after the rotary/wool... it's hard to explain because there are many caveats. But basically it boils down to faster arm speed with the rotary...and defect removal. I don't use it on every detail but the ones that need it... you bet.

And I welcome you to my shop but there are better teachers than I regarding rotary usage! Probably quite a few around you! CA is quite a long ways from me... 8 hours to the border via I-5 for me. (I recently moved to Vancouver, WA.)

Cheers!

 

[qwertydude]

If it's taking you 2 additional polishing steps to finish out on a rotary, you need to practice on the rotary more.

2 additional polishing steps means removing a lot of material already after a compound with wool which can remove a lot of paint.

I find that people who aren't used to rotaries and are transferring from DA and foam to wool and rotary do two things wrong. Too much pressure and not enough polish. Wool sucks up a lot of polish and needs to be primed properly before use. This means spraying some detail sprayer to moisten the wool and then running 3-4 lines of polish all the way across the face.

Start slow and spread the polish quickly then step up the speed and work the polish always making sure you're moving the polisher and keeping the face parallel to the panel, this will help avoid holograms. More importantly in order to maximize the leveling capability wool has, light pressure only. Just enough to compress the wool flat but no more, most of the time I find I have to support the polisher, not press down on it, it's the rotational speed and light pressure that gives the leveling and correcting ability and the light pressure ensures you'll heat the paint less than with foam.

Using the above method I can usually finish out well enough for anyone but the pickiest detailers to just use M105 directly to wax or at most a cleaner wax to eliminate any stray holograms. And that dusting people complain about, it's designed to do that because with wool and high production facilities they want to be able to clear their wool by spurring it and be able to move to the next panel with a primed pad and just another line of polish necessary. Trying to do this with a high lubricity polish like M101 is time consuming because the spent polish doesn't just fly off the pad with just a spurring necessitating a wash and spin or a new pad.

At most just needing to go to M205 or Ultimate Polish on a DA to give it maximum gloss and make metallics really pop.

Basically the point I'm trying to make is if you're trying to maximize production a wool pad and rotary will do it. Just face the fact that you won't get a concours finish without significant skill and 2 extra polishing steps is just abusive to paint and the subsequent polishing steps which defeat the production aspect of the wool and rotary further make this pointless.

In which case if you're going for perfection going foam and rotary and M101 is a much better route. Then finish with a finishing polish. A two step polish is much more preferable than a three step in terms of paint preservation. IF you don't have the chops to do a one step polish with wool an rotary and at most a two step with a finish step using a DA and foam, then it's best to not do this until you've had practice. A three step polish is too excessive for anything other than correcting wet sanding.

If this is to repair damage then perhaps it's best to use the wool and rotary just to correct the heaviest defects and then switch to a standard DA finishing polish for the rest of the car.

It's important as a detailer to resist the urge to always whip out the big guns, ie wool rotary and compounds unless it's deemed absolutely necessary, and even then it's preferable to use them only for the worst spots, especially if you can't finish well enough that you'll need two subsequent polishing steps afterward.

Just for example this is the proper technique, well almost, I would have cross hatched the passes but he's handling the polisher correctly. Notice how fast you're able to move with a rotary, this speed enables you to work some pretty large areas. I often could do half a hood at a time. Also notice the pad is basically just floating on the paint. Do not press down on a wool and rotary, you'll just be asking for bad hazing and holograms, which just might need two DA polishing steps to remove, in which case you're inflicting damage with wool not correcting it. But get it right and this is why nothing beats wool when it comes to speed and production capability. This person likely could go straight to wax or at most just a DA and finishing polish if he was looking for perfection.

 

[Jsmooth]

I have a mini rupes and love it! As for wool and rotary... ummmm thats a rare occasion a car is so bad you need that. And if you use wool and rotary I promise you that "cleaner wax" is NOT going to remove the haze or swirls left from it. I've logged thousands of hours behind a rotary and I'm very good with it. But I still find it faster and easier to do big correction with rupes 21 and mini. Just my 2 cents

 

[qwertydude]

I can finish without hazing and holograms with wool and a rotary and a decent cleaner wax will definitely remove what little is left over.

If you have "thousands" of hours on wool and you're leaving such a bad finish you've either perfected a poor technique or you're using cheap or contaminated wool pads. With real wool I can finish with no hazing after a burnishing step with wool and spray detailer only and maybe only some very light hologramming on difficult areas where I can't get full flat facing with the pad. But a cleaner wax on a DA will most definitely get rid of it.

Because I'll tell you a lot of other professionals do just fine with wool. Paint shops all over the US polish with wool with outstanding results. The paint shop I apprenticed in was wool only. And at most if you're going for perfection you'd finish with finishing polish on foam and rotary. The paint shop didn't have a DA. Too slow. The paint shop also never waxed in order to let the paint fully cure so polish only. And it didn't take me long to learn how to fully finish out on wool and rotary.

So if you still doubt the possibility with wool either volunteer with the real pros who do use wool or apprentice at a high production paint shop. You might just find out your "thousands" of hours were wasted on poor technique. It is more than possible. If wool was so bad it never would have become the defacto standard when it comes to the ultimate in paint leveling and high speed correction.

 

[genynnc]

Querty-

Good points. Agree with the technique(s) you described. Definitely want to use plenty of product and very little pressure (if any) on the rotary. I really like the HD 5.1" lambswool pad... decent cut and awesome finish!

Never said I didn't need more practice though, lol.

Regarding steps, my mentors always follow wool (and even MF with a Flex/Rupes) with two steps...when they are going for absolute defect-free, maximum gloss. So, until my rotary skills match or exceed theirs... I'll do as they do. And that's probably not going to happen very soon, lol. However, I could pull out 205 and white pad on the Rupes 21 and knock out the holograms and do it in 2 steps. It wouldn't be perfect though... especially on red, black or dark base color.

I may have worded one of my posts poorly... I usually pull out the rotary for bad random scratches... so I'm not just hitting every area/panel with the rotary. Just sections where 'it is taking too long'. That's why I originally said the Rupes is good but it's no rotary!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting your abilities. Sounds like you do some mad good work!

Thanks for your posts!

 

[Jsmooth]

Originally Posted By: qwertydude
I can finish without hazing and holograms with wool and a rotary and a decent cleaner wax will definitely remove what little is left over.

If you have "thousands" of hours on wool and you're leaving such a bad finish you've either perfected a poor technique or you're using cheap or contaminated wool pads. With real wool I can finish with no hazing after a burnishing step with wool and spray detailer only and maybe only some very light hologramming on difficult areas where I can't get full flat facing with the pad. But a cleaner wax on a DA will most definitely get rid of it.

Because I'll tell you a lot of other professionals do just fine with wool. Paint shops all over the US polish with wool with outstanding results. The paint shop I apprenticed in was wool only. And at most if you're going for perfection you'd finish with finishing polish on foam and rotary. The paint shop didn't have a DA. Too slow. The paint shop also never waxed in order to let the paint fully cure so polish only. And it didn't take me long to learn how to fully finish out on wool and rotary.

So if you still doubt the possibility with wool either volunteer with the real pros who do use wool or apprentice at a high production paint shop. You might just find out your "thousands" of hours were wasted on poor technique. It is more than possible. If wool was so bad it never would have become the defacto standard when it comes to the ultimate in paint leveling and high speed correction.


This is all true, but... Why is that every day at my shop we fix tons of body shop inflicted wool rotary marks? And Whens the last time you buffed a car and used cleaner wax 1962 when all paint was single stage? I own one of the highest regarded shops in the country and I deal with modern cars and modern paint. I don't care what your technique is wool and rotary/cleaner wax might look great till you wash it a cpl times and all the fillers in the wax reveal the true condition and the left over buffer haze. Wool has its place for being an efficient leveler of paint after sanding. But every body shop in a 100 mile radius of me follows that with a glaze and car looks fine till you wash it. Then like magic all the swirls and haze reappear. I understand you use to be a detailer and there is no way I could tell you anything other than what you know because your clearly a "Know it all" but if you want i'll pick up the flight for you to come show me this at my shop because if your right I'm doing something terribly wrong and could be 10000 times more efficient with my details. Should I send a ticket?

 

[qwertydude]

The last time I buffed a car with wool was two years ago. It was a badly swirled Mercedes CLS which definitely benefited from it. It helped level the orange peel somewhat but most of all was easily able to work through the very hard paint without resorting to higher pressure and slow passes with a DA and the resultant heat build up. If you've ever worked very hard paint with a DA and foam you'd know it literally can leave your foam pad steaming.

You claim the last time I polished with wool was single stage days and yet you won't acknowledge not only the advances in OEM paint making them harder but also much thinner, necessitating less but more effective polishing techniques. The advances in polishes allowing simultaneously better cut and better finish mean you can correct anything wool leaves behind with a single polish like M205 and its SMAT technology. Those two advances ought to make it abundantly clear that it's not me that's living in the past, it's you for thinking wool can't finish on newer, harder clears with at most just one finishing polish step with more advanced polishes.

So it works just fine with harder paints. If you bother to stop and think before you start polishing you'd know when to use wool and when not to. I certainly wouldn't use it for Honda's. But Honda's never need it because their paint is soft and easy to correct. Wool works great for harder paints that need a lot of correction.

Look at it this way, does wool leave the finish worse than when you started? No it really shouldn't if it did then what's the point of using it? If it does leave it worse than when you started you are you're doing something seriously wrong.

Now look at what kind of finish a decent finishing polish like M205 is able to achieve. Most of the time people are able to do a lot of correction with it with a DA. Certainly it's been my experience that M205 can remove light to medium swirling and any sort of hazing and holograms.

In fact read up on what the pros on autopia post. M205 is often THE go to correction product for holograms on paint after receiving a car from the normal PDI detail monkeys at your average used car lot which all too often use wool and use it wrong. And generally the pros don't do a final finish AFTER a good M205 polishing. It's because it will take care of just about anything but serious damage and leaves a fantastic finish. And again if you're inflicting serious damage with wool that M205 can't correct you shouldn't be using it.

Read up on these other posts about wool. You'll see yes wool can leave micro-marring. And read more carefully, NONE of the posts say after wool you need TWO correction steps.

http://www.meguiarsonline.com/forums/sho...lishing-Pad-for

http://www.autogeekonline.net/forum/auto-detailing-tools-accessories/13962-wool-vs-foam-pads.html

You offering to pay for my ticket to prove a point is better spent on perhaps attending one of the Meguiar's seminars on how to professionally detail. They will teach you how to use wool properly and they will show you you only need at most one finishing polish step after wool, not two.

And read up on what kind of wool there is. Even before foam became popular wool was often all that was available and people finished just fine with them.

http://www.refinishnetwork.com/car-paint...ompounding-pads

Some of the more advanced mateials like foamed wool or the soft lambswool can finish out as good as foam.

 

[Jsmooth]

Ok so first off 205 is NOT a cleaner wax, You stated a cleaner wax was capable of removing wool haze or halograms. Now you say 205, which I would of never argued with because 205 is a medium polish that works great just for this. Clean waxes on the other hand have almost 0 cut and are not cable of removing the damage left over from wool. And if you look back to original response I stated you almost never need wool and rotary these days unless a car is really bad(goes with whole paint preservation thing you preach so much). I'm not really trying to get into a [censored] match with you, but as an engineer I understand your need to be right so ill leave it at that. If I keep arguing with you, you'll just reword it again and change your story. I get it

 

[qwertydude]

A cleaner wax is able to remove the very minor hazing I WILL LEAVE BEHIND. I don't trash paint with wool. I can finish enough using paint burninshing methods with detailer spray and finishing wool that the very minor correcting ability of a cleaner wax will easily completely correct it. And this is including an IPA wipe to check if the wax is just filling or actually correcting.

So yes if I MYSELF use wool with the proper techniques I can finish out just fine that a cleaner wax will take care of it. That's the point I'm trying to make. Wool and rotary take significant skill but when part of a proper detail arsenal is an invaluable skill that not only can save time but preserve paint better when used correctly.

But if you don't have enough skill that a single finishing polish can take care of what you leave behind with wool and a rotary and have to resort to two polishing steps then you shouldn't use wool.

And wool can preserve paint better in some instances because of the leveling effect it has, it tends to only take down the high spots and can blunt the edges of swirls enough to make them effectively invisible so you don't have to remove paint to the bottom of the worst swirl. With high pressure on cutting foam and a DA you're sorta forced to work to the bottom of a defect, wool you're not. If you know about heavy compounding with a DA and foam you know it can actually remove more paint than actual wet sanding with 3000 grit sandpaper.

I will admit I generally don't pull out my rotary these days because I can accomplish a lot with the new formulas of polishes and remove less paint because I don't have to work til the polish is finished, I only have to work til I achieve the level of correction needed. This not only save time but also reduces the need for me to use wool and a rotary. Reduces, not eliminates. When it comes to hard and thin paints that need heavy correction wool will correct faster, more evenly and remove less paint because it blunts the edges of defects with its levelling action rather than uniformly removing a layer of paint down to the bottom of the defect like cutting foam and compounds tend to do.