Rotella T4

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RDY, Sorry got ahead of myself before I saw your last post....SO i double posted.

Is Driven GP1 a synthetic? I was trying to stay away from a synthetic oil if possible. Also I see you prefer Mobile 1 over Rotella. Would you mind sharing why? or is it because of your cam issue. which is certainly understandable.

A number of friends of mine with similar vehicles, but not with 4.9L engine, are using travelers diesel Oil from TSC, know nothing about it, but they swear by it.
 
Originally Posted by Needshave
Rdy,

Thanks for following up. DO you think the part of the problem with wiping a cam lobe was with cold starting using a 15W? could it have been too thick to get immediate lubrication, if a 10W would have been used do you think the problem would have not developed?


No. It was only used in warmer weather between March and November. It was put away in a climate controlled garage for the winter months.


Originally Posted by Needshave
RDY, Sorry got ahead of myself before I saw your last post....SO i double posted.

Is Driven GP1 a synthetic? I was trying to stay away from a synthetic oil if possible. Also I see you prefer Mobile 1 over Rotella. Would you mind sharing why? or is it because of your cam issue. which is certainly understandable.

A number of friends of mine with similar vehicles, but not with 4.9L engine, are using travelers diesel Oil from TSC, know nothing about it, but they swear by it.


GP-1 is a semi-synthetic with 10-30% group III. The lower group mineral oil that makes up the bulk of the base oil is Pennsylvania crude.

I'd rather use M1 0w-40 over Rotella T4 or T6 mainly due to the type of ZDDP used.
 
So is there a OTC dino that would work well for an old flat tappet engine? In my case this is a high mile engine that only sees summer use. I have been using Rotella because it was cheap, good quality and most on BITOG seem to recommend HDEO for these types of engines.

Rdy4War, what do you mean the ZDDP types are different?

The GP1 looks like good oil, but I am not sure if I can find it in Canada. And while I use Mobil 1 in my modern cars, for the usage this engine sees I think synthetic is overkill.

I will be building this engine down the road, and at that time it will be getting a roller cam.
 
Originally Posted by Oldswagon
So is there a OTC dino that would work well for an old flat tappet engine? In my case this is a high mile engine that only sees summer use. I have been using Rotella because it was cheap, good quality and most on BITOG seem to recommend HDEO for these types of engines.

Rdy4War, what do you mean the ZDDP types are different?

The GP1 looks like good oil, but I am not sure if I can find it in Canada. And while I use Mobil 1 in my modern cars, for the usage this engine sees I think synthetic is overkill.

I will be building this engine down the road, and at that time it will be getting a roller cam.


There are three main types of ZDDP: primary, secondary, and aryl, with various sub-types within each. Primary types are less reactive and less effective at wear protection, but offer greater anti-oxidant properties and are less harmful to DPFs, cats, and other emissions equipment. It's the type used in diesel oils since at least the early 80s and suits a diesel engine that lugs a heavy load along at 1500 rpm for hours unend. Most gas oils use a blend of primary and secondary ZDDP, usually 60-80% secondary, in order to get greater reactivity at lower temperature and pressure. This benefits the short trips and frequent starts and stops seen by gas engines.

Your boutique options like Driven oils, Red Line, Schaeffer's, Amsoil Dominator and Z-Rod, etc... use all secondary type ZDDP. A downside to ZDDP though is that it increases hydrodynamic friction by way of its very function. If you load the oil up with too much ZDDP (regardless of type), you can increase that friction to the point that it becomed abrassive. My understanding is this occurs at around 1900 ppm Zn and up. This is why I now like to use the least amount of ZDDP that is absolutely necessary for sufficient wear protection, as well as a good dose of MoDTC friction reducer.
 
I'm trying to find the PPM of ZDDP in Rotella T4, 10W30. I'm sure it is on this website somewhere, yet I have been unable to find it. I'm trying to gather information for a comparison, as to the amount of zddp in T4, compared to 10-w30 back in the 90's when the truck was built as well as others like valvoline premium blue.

Thanks for your help
 
Originally Posted by Needshave
I'm trying to find the PPM of ZDDP in Rotella T4, 10W30. I'm sure it is on this website somewhere, yet I have been unable to find it. I'm trying to gather information for a comparison, as to the amount of zddp in T4, compared to 10-w30 back in the 90's when the truck was built as well as others like valvoline premium blue.

Thanks for your help


Be careful - The ZDDP all changed when the classification went from CJ-4 to CK-4 with ALL the qualifying oils....thats why some (like Rotella dropped the API-SN designation) - couldn't do both - some still claim (and have both certs) they can.
 
Originally Posted by tundraotto
Originally Posted by Needshave
I'm trying to find the PPM of ZDDP in Rotella T4, 10W30. I'm sure it is on this website somewhere, yet I have been unable to find it. I'm trying to gather information for a comparison, as to the amount of zddp in T4, compared to 10-w30 back in the 90's when the truck was built as well as others like valvoline premium blue.

Thanks for your help


Be careful - The ZDDP all changed when the classification went from CJ-4 to CK-4 with ALL the qualifying oils....thats why some (like Rotella dropped the API-SN designation) - couldn't do both - some still claim (and have both certs) they can.


I had heard that as well. I questioned shell engineering about the same and why it no longer had the SN designation. If you look above you will see they claim it to be a change in API regulations. I questioned Shell today about their rumored drop in the ZDDP levels, their response is below:

"Thank You for reaching out to the Shell Technical team. The Zinc and Phosphorus contents of the Rotella line haven't been changed since the 90s. So if they are using the Rotella T4 Triple Protection then and there was no problem, it will give you the same if not better performance now. As for your question about the viscosity, we always recommend that you go with the OEM requirement in this case a 10W-30."

As you can see, Shell claims there was no drop in ZDDP levels. One of the reasons I was looking for independent analysis.
 
There are analysis on here of the VOA Rotella T6 5w40 (CJ vs CK) the zinc went from around 1200 to around 850ppm.....same thing with Phosphorous
 
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My best friend has a '89 E150 with the 300 and C6. He's owned this van for a little over 5 years (at least 90K when he bought it - it was really too clean to have been 190K at the time) and has easily put on 100,000 miles in that time, most of it on T4 15w40. Exact mileage is unknown because someone replaced the 3.73's? with 2.75 gears - made for a real nice dynamic with the non-OD transmission and the 300's low-end torque, but the odometer's accuracy was screwed. At any rate, just from knowing how the van gets used on a daily basis it's lived at least a 25K/year schedule since he's had it. He's a capable mechanic but I'm the primary maintainer of the van - I persuaded him to try my preferred Valvoline Maxlife 10w40 in it, and it leaked/used substantially more, so back to ol' T4 it went. That motor holds maybe 10 PSI of oil pressure at hot idle, has towed loads across Indiana, Kentucky, and Tennessee that had it slugging it out at 45 MPH, full load, on hills, and hasn't always had anywhere near a 3K-mile OCI.

The Shell personnel are bound by what's *approved* for use in your motor - if they say it's OK to use such-and-such oil in a motor, the motor isn't actually spec'd for it, and by some fluke it grenades while filled with the "wrong" oil OK'd by a Shell employee, then bam: the individual has a legitimate beef with Shell for giving them wrong information that *could have lead to* the ruin of their engine. The 10w30 would be more than adequate for it so they're not wrong - but if the 15w40 keeps it quiet and it performs satisfactory otherwise, it's 100% not going to hurt it.
 
Originally Posted by Needshave
I'm trying to find the PPM of ZDDP in Rotella T4, 10W30. I'm sure it is on this website somewhere, yet I have been unable to find it. I'm trying to gather information for a comparison, as to the amount of zddp in T4, compared to 10-w30 back in the 90's when the truck was built as well as others like valvoline premium blue.

Thanks for your help


I searched around the site and couldn't find one either. If you do come across please post it here. I noticed you have a lot of other old iron in your fleet. What oil are you running on your other flat tappet cars?

Originally Posted by RDY4WAR


There are three main types of ZDDP: primary, secondary, and aryl, with various sub-types within each. Primary types are less reactive and less effective at wear protection, but offer greater anti-oxidant properties and are less harmful to DPFs, cats, and other emissions equipment. It's the type used in diesel oils since at least the early 80s and suits a diesel engine that lugs a heavy load along at 1500 rpm for hours unend. Most gas oils use a blend of primary and secondary ZDDP, usually 60-80% secondary, in order to get greater reactivity at lower temperature and pressure. This benefits the short trips and frequent starts and stops seen by gas engines.

Your boutique options like Driven oils, Red Line, Schaeffer's, Amsoil Dominator and Z-Rod, etc... use all secondary type ZDDP. A downside to ZDDP though is that it increases hydrodynamic friction by way of its very function. If you load the oil up with too much ZDDP (regardless of type), you can increase that friction to the point that it becomed abrassive. My understanding is this occurs at around 1900 ppm Zn and up. This is why I now like to use the least amount of ZDDP that is absolutely necessary for sufficient wear protection, as well as a good dose of MoDTC friction reducer.


I had never heard about this different types of ZDDP. How do we know what percentage of each an oil has? How do we know the ZDDP in Z-Rod oil is different from the T4 Rotella? I am not disputing anything you said, just trying to learn. And I would appreciate your opinion if any OTC dino oils are suitable for older flat tappet engines.
 
Originally Posted by Oldswagon

I had never heard about this different types of ZDDP. How do we know what percentage of each an oil has? How do we know the ZDDP in Z-Rod oil is different from the T4 Rotella? I am not disputing anything you said, just trying to learn. And I would appreciate your opinion if any OTC dino oils are suitable for older flat tappet engines.


An excerpt from Lubricant Additives: Uses and Benefits, slide 29...

"The main chemical families are zinc dithiophosphates (ZDDPs), hindered phenols, aromatic amines, phosphorus compounds, polysiloxanes and sulfurised fatty acid derivatives.

ZDDP additives have dialkyl moieties and can be subdivided into primary alkyl and secondary alkyl ZDDPs. Pentan-l-ol and 3-methylbutan-2-ol are illustrative of the primary and secondary alcohols used to prepare primary and secondary ZDDPs.

Different ZDDP chemical types perform differently (Table 4). Each type has important applications in modern additive packages. The choice of the alcohols used in the preparation of the ZDDP determines the relative effectiveness of the ZDDP as an anti-wear agent but also its ability to withstand the effects of heat and water i.e. thermal and hydrolytic stability.
"

https://www.atc-europe.org/public/D...t%20Additives%20Use%20and%20Benefits.pdf

There's more links that I have but they are paid content so I don't think I'm allowed to screenshot and post it here. If you feel like paying the $30 or so bucks, look up the SAE paper for History and Mechanisms of ZDDP. It discusses the distinctive use of primary alkyl ZDDP in diesel oils and secondary in gas oils.
 
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