replace the car or replace the engine?

[skate1968]

thanks m2200b,

I've read that overhauling my single overhead cam, 1.5 Liter engine is NOT worth it. These engines are very cheap, no one wants them.

Everyone wants JDM, Vtech, Dual overhead, Integra, etc.

I thought that the labor cost of an overhaul was roughly close to the labor cost of a swap. Is that correct?

I just got a new clutch.

 

[ALS]

The question should be how well has it been taken care of?
Is the body exceptionally clean? Is the interior still nice? What about the transmission does it still shift smooth? These are questions you need to ask yourself. If you are thinking about keeping the car another 50K miles then do it. But if this is a temporary fix to keep the car around for another year or two don't waste the money and time.
I replaced the motor in my 87 Volvo wagon (340K miles) because the car was in excellent condition. That was 58K miles ago and I plan on keeping the car to 500K miles. So the cost of the re-manufactured engine per mile over 220K miles is minimal.

 

[Volvohead]

I think you need to consider who's doing the labor against the price strata of the vehicle involved when considering engine changeouts on older entry-level economy cars.

I do know that a lot of kids will swap out the engines on these entry-level Hondas, but you are correct to point out that most of them are either young mechanics or otherwise have sufficient skills, tools (and time) on their hands to play with it. And from what I've seen among those, they don't necessarily hold on the the results for all that long, often moving "upscale" to an Acura or other larger Japanese ride. And I think the rest of the young older-Civic crowd just rice them out until they too can afford something better.

But absent doing it yourself, or under some friendly arrangement, I would be loath to drop a fresh engine in any older entry-level model.

Obviously, a year or two old example with sufficent market value tilts the equation more favorably. But an older Civic, no matter how reliable or sturdy, is not the same as an older Volvo, Saab, MB, BMW or even a number of domestics. For the latter, it is still more likely worthwhile to pay for both the parts and labor of an engine replacement.

 

[javacontour]

Can you get one of the NON-JDM engines from one of the guys swapping a JDM engine in their ride?

If you could find a low mileage instance, that might be the best bargain yet.

 

[m2200b]

I thought the price of your direct replacement motor-$50 like a Tercels. The hotter motors are more eg $750-2000. If you want to buy another 50K miles I'd use the cheaper motor so you have enough left to repair the other stuff a 150-200k mile car has to replace.

 

[m2200b]

I meant $450 but agree with Javacontour - that you need to decide whether this is a go faster project and compare your project to other options
like maybe a newer faster model or whether you just want more low cost miles - and pick the lower cost motors. The more expensive motor isn't going to change resale value as much as you pay for it.

 

[rpn453]

I wouldn't even think about it until the engine dies, which may never happen.

 

[ChrisW]

burning oil...rings or most likely valve stem seals...seals are a lot cheaper than a used/newer engine.

 

[skate1968]

Many believe that swapping a new engine into a 4rth generation honda civic is a good investment. But these are often people with mechanic skill. These are often people who race. It's worthwhile for them because they do the labor themselves in thier buddy's shop. What about if you're not a mechanic? Would you recommend a swap for an accountant?

The engine i have now burns oil but it's far from dead. I'm just thinking about the future. Exactly how much is this car worth fixing up? New floor carpets are cheap.

A low miles, jdm replacement engine (faster!) for a fourth generation civics might run me 700 dollars. For 1500 dollars i could get an even nicer upgrade (more horse less mpg).

It seems like almost all members of the 4rth generation civic forums do some kind of engine swap. If a fourth generation has no rust it's worth putting a new engine in.

http://www.civic4g.com/

http://honda-tech.com/zeroforum/3

Please advise. Thanks.

 

[m2200b]

The economics of swap verses replace the car
turn more the additonal costs of interest, insurance , taxes and depreciation if that car you'd buy is more than the $2000 your swap will cost with labor and a few other changes you usually make with an engine swap. IE once its out- clutch, oil pump, water pump, new hoses, wires, tstat.

Some lower cost mechanics can beat the price of a used motor swap by doing rings, top end and check the head with the engine in place on civics. But if you need a clutch I'd probably do a used swap.

 

[skate1968]

Thanks to all of you for your input. People on the honda boards are often in the "more horsepower at all costs!" frame of mind.

Chris,
I would LOVE for my problem to be valve stem seals or guides because that's a relatively cheap fix as compared to worn piston rings. However the mechanic didn't find any problem with valves.

Java and John,
If i decided on a replacement motor I would want more than the 92 horsepower motor that i have now.

I had my old transmission replaced with a low miles jdm transmission. The fact that it was soooo cheap and easy has me thinking about an engine swap.

 

[m2200b]

If you've done the clutch and trannie you've already chosen used motor over dumping this gen for a newer gen. You just are paying for jacking the motor out twice by doing it at a later time.

I'd place the resale value of what you add at about 1/3 since you have already a 15+ year old car. I also place the risk on used at about 20% failure and mileage at closer to 80-100K on JDM than the 40K most resellers claim. Try for a 1 year rather 90days warranty but you are usually stuck with installation that is 2x as much as the motor. That's why a ring in place has less risk to me but if you've got 150K and above I'd still go JDM.

Look at the stuff that easier to do when the motor is out- water pump, tstat, oil pump, tbelt, radiator, even the o2 sensor,looking at the exhaust manifolds for cracks.

 

[Schmoe]

How many miles you got on this thing to think you got worn out piston rings? Oil is cheaper than a new engine.

 

[surfstar]

Have you tried Auto-Rx yet?

 

[m2200b]

looks like he tried ARX and failed on a 190k 91 civic.91
Honda civic w/ 188K miles. It's burned oil since i bought it at 100K miles. Right now it probably burns about 1 quart every 900 or 1300 miles

I'm changing my vote - sell it to someoneelse
and go a gen or two up or just run it until its history - then sell its new trannie.

 

[skate1968]

Thanks to everyone for thier input.

m2200b,
I don't think of my use of ARX as a failure. I was quite thrilled that my car was suddenly smoother and faster. After improved performance I decided the car was worth fixing. Re read my old posts and you'll see i was the "ARX cheerleader."

ARX made my civic smoother and faster but did NOT fix the oil burning.

When i put the clutch and transmission in the oil burning was less. Therfore i've not "already chosen" a used engine swap.

It's only recently that i've noticed an increase in burning. I just topped it off and i'll watch exactly how quickly i go through a quart. Perhaps i've developed a new leak somewhere. Hopefully it's not a piston ring that suddenly went.

In the mean time i might hold off on painting the bumper, floor carpets, etc.

Schmoe,
By the process of elimination i'm diagnosing worn rings. (and maybe something else in addition to the rings)

By the way, my initial concern over the maintenace of a swapped engine has been adressed. A swapped engine won't necessarily be ultra high maintenance. This is because i won't be playing with the chipped ECU, advanced timing, rocket fuel, and high rpm that some honda tuners from the other website deal with.

 

[Volvohead]

This is all about a fifteen year old Civic?

Time to move on.

 

[surfstar]

...or experiment with the various "stop oil burning" products at your local auto store. Maybe the snot-like Lucas oil treatment would actually help in this case?

 

[JHZR2]

Depending on how greatthe body, interior and suspension really is will be the answer... Suspension being the big question, as once a few things need to be replaced, youre spending over a few thousand on it.

If anything but the engine and drivetrain were shot, Id say to keep it. Rubber bushings on a commuter car wont leave you stranded in west philly at 2am... but an bum engine running poorly might eventually foul up plugs or whatnot so bad that its over.

If you dont have a friend or a good deal to putin the work, youre looking at $$$. Even if you get a free engine and free replacement parts to make it really good, youre still looking at $$$, and to some extent, uncertainty, especially if its not a rebuild.

If its a car that costs you >$30k to replace with its modern equivalent, Id say go for it. Id have no issue replacing the engine or drivetrain in my 300D (228k) or 318i (110k) at any point (though both are still like new fortunately) - though some may say that even that is silly. However, for an econo car that can be had either identical in age for next to nothing, or newer for not that much, or brand new for less than $20k, heck, probably less than $15k if speced out right, I dont think there is a reason to keep a car that can be replaced with a similar economy car that will produce less exhaust emissions, be better from a safety and technology standpoint, have more power and potentially better fuel economy as well.

That said, depending on how you would plan to dispose of it, I would probably keep feeding it 15w40 and a stop leak/burn product until you extract more utlity from it... You just got a new clutch? Wel, drive it until the tires wear out, or there is something else major... Youll get even less for the shell (or you might just be plannng to roll it to the junkyard anyway), but youll put off your purchase and extract more use from the vehicle, so youre better off, IMO,

JMH

 

[johnd]

I was a good piece of advice in the newspaper the other day in a car column regarding car repairs. It stated that when monthly repairs or a major repair figured over a finite length of time started approaching the cost of a new car payment, they were probably not a good idea. If significantly cheaper than a new car payment, they probably were a good idea. That kind of puts the whole thing into perspective. The only joker in that deck is the unexpected event. We put $2K into the AC of a 1995 Honda Civic VX last year fully expecting to keep it another couple of years. The car was totaled in an unexpected accident and we were compensated in the amount of the value of the car which was just about what we had just put into the AC. Win some, lose some.