Red + Yellow Dots and Tire Balancing

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Sep 26, 2010
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Tire Guys:

I have been reading that with regards to balancing, the yellow dot (indicating the lightest part of the tire), should be lined up with the valve stem and this will typically result in the least amount of weight needed to balance the tire.

I would hazard to say that on most tires it may not matter, but as you move up with larger and larger tires (e.g. truck and SUV) it becomes more of a necessity. As you can see in the photo below it is obvious that Discount Tire either knows nothing about the dots or simply does not care.

Can anyone confirm that the yellow dot should be aligned with the valve stem?


fFVhLF.jpg
 

However, i'm not at all sure its universal, best to ask the manufacturer, or proper road force.
 
If they road force the tire, it's going to be rotated to the best spot on the wheel regardless.

If you have a hand-crank machine in your garage, I suspect it is more critical.

Are the tires balanced well or not?
I think I have one of them a bit off. I had to bring the tires in one at a time simply because I didn't have a way to get them to Discount all at once so five different techs balanced the tires. I had to bring the Jeep back though because one of them was clearly not right. It's better now but it still is not quite right.
 
The dots won't make much of a difference on a tire that big, unless the wheel has a lot of imbalance or run-out. Even so, I haven't had much luck using the valve stem, and ended up putting it 180 from the valve stem to get the weight down. Some wheels are even counterweighted to offset the weight of the stem/sensor. The dots do not indicate how much they are off either. It could be almost nothing, or quite a bit. I have checked bare wheels on the road force balancer and marking the imbalance, and run-out on the wheel, and then when you check the assembly you can figure out how much of the problem is from the tire. It's a lot of time/work, and I would expect to have to pay a lot to it that way.
 

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Have read that the color dot and its meaning varies from one manufacturer to another.

Have balanced naked rims-- they take 0.25 oz or none at all. Pretty much all the imbalance is in the tire. So matching it up won't contribute much. Best thing is to check with the intrepid engineers at "Trail Hog" to see what their dots mean.

It's also notable that your fashionable rims with the cute little WWII Jeep don't have provisions for a weight on the outer lip. This makes dynamic balancing hard or impossible, so you may only have static via sticky weights or inner clamp on ones.
 
There is no universal system here. I would say there is a lack of a system here!

First, hardly any wheel manufacturers spot the valve hole in a particular location - in other words: The location is random. There are some exceptions, but I think the exceptions are mostly because the OEM vehicle manufacturer requires it.

Second, the tire manufacturers do NOT have a system. And if a tire manufacturer marks the tires with a dot, it usually the RED dot that is important.

Why: We are talking about two different things: Balance and Uniformity (Think runout and you'll be close.)

Balancing is just putting weights on the wheel to counter balance the imperfections in the tire and wheel. In the end, a balanced tire and wheel assembly is balanced - it's just a matter of how much weight is needed. Less weight doesn't give you a better ride.

But Uniformity is a whole different issue. If you could match the high point of the tire with the low point of the wheel, the assembly is rounder. ALL OEM vehicle manufacturer REQUIRE that both the wheel and the tire be marked and the vehicle assembly plant matches those marks to get a better assembly. (Then they balance the assembly!)

If I understand this correctly, the RED dot is usually the uniformity high point, and the yellow dot is usually the balance heavy spot - BUT - most tire manufacturers don't mark them.

RoadForcing a tire and wheel assembly will give you a uniformity value for the assembly. Then you MIGHT be able to make it better if you follow the machine's procedure (which includes measuring the wheel, breaking down the assembly and rotating the tire relative to the wheel, then testing again to see if you got it right.)

But since hardly any wheel is marked, matching dots to the valve holes hardly ever results in a better assembly. On the other hand, it doesn't cause any harm.
 
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I agree with you CR on it doesn't matter so much about how much weight it takes. The problem is with some wheels, depending on the offset is when using tape weights is that they need almost double the amount than it would take on the outer flange. When you have a long strip of weights going almost a quarter of the way around the inner barrel behind the spokes, and then you end up with a lot of weight on the rear flange in some cases.
 
Digging up old subjects here but I wanted to post my recent experiments. I am installing new tires on my pickup truck and I was bored so I used the spare steel wheel to conduct my research. The steel wheel has a factory white dot noting the point of greatest radial runout as per the Hankook tire company, which are the OEM suppliers to Nissan on this vehicle.

So here's what I found:
Steel wheel had .20 ounces of imbalance on both the inner and outer lip.
The white dot (radial runout notation) was NOT the heaviest spot on the wheel. The valve stem was NOT the heaviest spot on the wheel either. I marked the heaviest spot on the wheel with red paint for reference.

I mounted a brand new tire to the brand new wheel and here is what I noted:
Red dot on tire matched to white dot on wheel = 1 ounce on inner lip and 1.2 ounces on outer lip
Red dot on tire matched to heavy spot on wheel = 1.4 ounces on inner lip and .8 ounces on outer lip
Red dot on tire matched to valve stem on wheel = 1.6 ounces on inner lip and .8 ounces on outer lip

And of course I matched the yellow dot to the valve stem. It was the most balanced of all locations with .9 ounces on inner lip and .2 ounces on outer lip.

In this one-off experiment the yellow dot to valve stem proved beneficial.
red dot to valve stem match.JPG
red dot to valve stem imbalance.JPG
yellow dot to valve stem.JPG
yellow dot to valve stem imbalance.JPG
 
I posted not to far back. The DOT on my Pirelli P7's was lined up with valve stem when mounted. Sam's had excess bead lube and my 2 front tires moved on the rim from the massive torque of my 4cyl Honda Accord. The DOT's were clear to see that they had moved causing them to not be balanced. Sam's made good on it but it made for a crappy and light shaking 4 day road trip.
 
Digging up old subjects here but I wanted to post my recent experiments. I am installing new tires on my pickup truck and I was bored so I used the spare steel wheel to conduct my research. The steel wheel has a factory white dot noting the point of greatest radial runout as per the Hankook tire company, which are the OEM suppliers to Nissan on this vehicle.

So here's what I found:
Steel wheel had .20 ounces of imbalance on both the inner and outer lip.
The white dot (radial runout notation) was NOT the heaviest spot on the wheel. The valve stem was NOT the heaviest spot on the wheel either. I marked the heaviest spot on the wheel with red paint for reference.

I mounted a brand new tire to the brand new wheel and here is what I noted:
Red dot on tire matched to white dot on wheel = 1 ounce on inner lip and 1.2 ounces on outer lip
Red dot on tire matched to heavy spot on wheel = 1.4 ounces on inner lip and .8 ounces on outer lip
Red dot on tire matched to valve stem on wheel = 1.6 ounces on inner lip and .8 ounces on outer lip

And of course I matched the yellow dot to the valve stem. It was the most balanced of all locations with .9 ounces on inner lip and .2 ounces on outer lip.

In this one-off experiment the yellow dot to valve stem proved beneficial.

You didn't measure the runout (uniformity) so you missed an important part of the picture.

Read what I wrote above. While the amount of weight was minimized using the yellow dot, you didn't get the best possible ride. Matching the red dot on the tire to the white dot on the wheel would have minimized the RUNOUT. Then balancing would have resulted in a balanced tire and wheel, with minimum runout.

Oh, and the difference between the valve stem and the white dot is so minimal that it doesn't really matter which you used. Effectively they would get the same result!
 
Thanks for you input Capri. The only time I see the white dot or material dimple is on steel wheels. How do you do it on alloy wheels that have no factory marking?

I specifically used this steel wheel because it did have the white dot. As for measuring runout, without a road force machine that's not possible. My balancer does have an option for tire optimization which I will try on my actual tire replacement but I honestly don't understand how the machine can tell the difference between wheel runout and tire runout. It is a procedure that requires I spin the bare wheel and then index it to the valve stem. Then I mount the tire and spin it. I then mark the tire and dismount it to align the mark with the valve stem.

I will give this a try but I don't know that it will prove beneficial. As I mentioned above, the tire manufacturer told me that the markings on the tire along with the "N" and "NN" stickers are used at the OEM facilities where they use laser balance and runout alignment. They told me that it really isn't an issue with modern wheels and tires and that many big name mfgr's don't even fool with it any longer. This is why I decided to mount the tire on the wheel at so many different locations just to see what it would indicate.
 
I install a new set of tires on my 1965 VW Beetle. I put the yellow dot at the valve stem on each wheel. I drove the car at 70+mph and detected no imbalance. I am a believer in the dot. Wheels have no weights.
 
All my different motorcycles that I installed tires on I also followed the dot plan and needed no weights for balance either.
 
well My DT has had full turnover and they have some issues.

Took in winter tire that had plastic noise in it...
but it gets better.. they replaced the sensor when I took it in.
--not my org. complaint it worked--
it was done... I came back and it still made the noise..
so they took it apart again and found old sensor from last year still in tire floating around and the battery too.
This was the plastic noise in tire
(last year one tpms sensor died and was replaced)

Get home start putting my winter wheels on.. and wheel weights fell off.

Drove to DT 2 days later for full rebalance.
Told them I want them all stripped and rebalanced I didnt feel they were that well balanced anyway.

To make story short I will tell the screwups.
1)Left centering rings on hub while balancing 2 of the tires
2)tires have TONS of weight.. like it was balanced off center... ie 16 weights on outside bottom... 14 weights on inside top
3) I specifically asked that all be stripped.. they never stripped the weights on 1 wheel and just rebalanced..... org. complaint.. weights were rusty and falling off.... I asked again when he told me what the balances were and he lied and said they were all replaced.
4) used impact on non-impact lug bolts (speciality bolts for smaller holes in wheels instructions say no impact)
5)Guy using torque wrench didnt use star pattern if bolts are labeled clockwise 1-2-3-4-5 he went 1-2 4-5-3 star would have been 1 3 5 2 4

I was angry so I just left and ate dinner.. not worth it.
They have no communication between order writer and kids in bay.
I specifically questioned if they would understand the need to strip all weights when rebalancing
due to his short note of rebalance all 4.. and he said yes.. I said ok because they are falling off... and need replaced.
didnt happen.

@Traction @CapriRacer (or another pro) Do you know if they would balance correctly without the centering rings.. the bore is large as these are aftermarket wheels to fit many vehicles... would the cone or whatever its called center correctly in a large bore?

I know at least one of the 2 that have TONS of weight they left the plastic hub centering ring on the hub.

here are some pics the ones that have GIANT LINES of weights on the outside have an almost similar amount on the inside directly opposite (if that makes sense)
Edit: pics 1 pic per wheel. these are the "outside" weights.

PXL_20211215_203332309.jpg


PXL_20211215_203258512.jpg

PXL_20211215_203309266.jpg

PXL_20211215_201247476.jpg
 
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well My DT has had full turnover and they have some issues.

Took in winter tire that had plastic noise in it...
but it gets better.. they replaced the sensor when I took it in.
--not my org. complaint it worked--
it was done... I came back and it still made the noise..
so they took it apart again and found old sensor from last year still in tire floating around and the battery too.
This was the plastic noise in tire
(last year one tpms sensor died and was replaced)

Get home start putting my winter wheels on.. and wheel weights fell off.

Drove to DT 2 days later for full rebalance.
Told them I want them all stripped and rebalanced I didnt feel they were that well balanced anyway.

To make story short I will tell the screwups.
1)Left centering rings on hub while balancing 2 of the tires
2)tires have TONS of weight.. like it was balanced off center... ie 16 weights on outside bottom... 14 weights on inside top
3) I specifically asked that all be stripped.. they never stripped the weights on 1 wheel and just rebalanced..... org. complaint.. weights were rusty and falling off.... I asked again when he told me what the balances were and he lied and said they were all replaced.
4) used impact on non-impact lug bolts (speciality bolts for smaller holes in wheels instructions say no impact)
5)Guy using torque wrench didnt use star pattern if bolts are labeled clockwise 1-2-3-4-5 he went 1-2 4-5-3 star would have been 1 3 5 2 4

I was angry so I just left and ate dinner.. not worth it.
They have no communication between order writer and kids in bay.
I specifically questioned if they would understand the need to strip all weights when rebalancing
due to his short note of rebalance all 4.. and he said yes.. I said ok because they are falling off... and need replaced.
didnt happen.

@Traction @CapriRacer (or another pro) Do you know if they would balance correctly without the centering rings.. the bore is large as these are aftermarket wheels to fit many vehicles... would the cone or whatever its called center correctly in a large bore?

I know at least one of the 2 that have TONS of weight they left the plastic hub centering ring on the hub.

here are some pics the ones that have GIANT LINES of weights on the outside have an almost similar amount on the inside directly opposite (if that makes sense)
Edit: pics 1 pic per wheel. these are the "outside" weights.



View attachment 81784
Time to find a new shop I think and submit the pictures to the location manager/owner and maybe DT corporate also.

Picture# 2the one I left looks like you might be loosing those weights also since there is a big section of open double stick to allow water and other stuff to get under it.

And HOLY CRACK on the amount of weight. What tires and rims is this? Further back I had to find a different shop to balance the Sequoia because of the larger hub bore. I recall something with an extra adapter because it had the "flat washer" lugs not the tapered cone for the factory alloy's.

Check Find Hunter GSP9700 for a place. Possibly also on Tire Rack "find a local installer"
 
well My DT has had full turnover and they have some issues.
[[Truncated to save space]]

First, the center hole in aftermarket wheels is centered, so leaving the hub spacers on the vehicle should not affect balance - after all, isn't that what the hub spacers are supposed to do - center the wheel on the hub?

Second, those weights in the photo are BEHIND the spokes and near the centerline of the wheel. That means it takes MORE weight to balance than if the weights are on the rim flange. So blame the tire and wheel, not the operator.
 
^yeah if you want a dynamic, two-plane balance but can only get the weights near the centerline it's going to take a bunch. Since there are a bunch opposite the static balance isn't too far off. Those weights have very little "leverage" in the plane they're needed.
 
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