Red versus amber rear turn signals

[mclasser]

I've always felt turn signals should be amber and not the same color as the brake light. Domestic companies were the worst offenders because they would have the brake light double as the turn signal as well. Some model years would alternate from red to amber, like in the 1st gen Chrysler 300. Nowadays, the Europeans and Japanese have also adopted widespread use of red rear turn signals but at least they are still separated from the brake light. You would think if you're paying $80K for a BMW or Benz, they could've spent a few extra bucks changing the LED bulbs from red to amber. It's funny because these same cars in Europe are required to have amber signals by law.

 

[eljefino]

IMO the worst offender was the Crown vic that got amber rear blinkers on the 1998 redesign then dumped them after a year.

With so many being turned into cop cars it would be nice to have some normal lights for them to use to indicate what they're going to do, driving wise, in addition to the "I'm a cop and everything's flashing willy nilly" light package they display.

Similarly, on a shared brake light circuit, if the turn signal or hazard switch malfunctions, this can cut power for both brake lights, leaving just the center high mounted light working. This seems to curse Trailblazers.

But I agree, these red blinkers really grind my gears.

 

[morepwr]

I don't know what color most cars use for a turn signal since most people never use them anyway!

 

[NateDN10]

Amber turn signals would be best, but having a separate red turn signal is OK too. What I don't like is the shared brake/turn signal (which my Cobalt has).

But worst of all is when people don't use whatever they have!

 

[440Magnum]

Where's Daniel Stern when you need him...?

There are good and bad implementations of both methods. Generally amber does have the potential to be the most visible, but not always. A few companies have recently put a small amber turn signal disk in the middle of a red brake light (Rover, Toyota, Mazda). THAT method, despite the amber turn sig, is as bad as the worst of the red turn signal implementations as far as being easily visible. The red brake light "ring" completely washes out and hides the amber turn signal in some light conditions.

The worst of the red implementations use a red turn signal beside a separate red brake light (eg. 03-06 Ram Trucks, many many other domestics from the 90s and early 2ks). Whenever the red brake light is on, it makes it much harder to see the flashing turn signal right next to it much the way the red brake light ring hides an amber turn signal in the middle of it. The best red implementation is the "old school" American system where the turn signal overrides the brake light on the side being signalled. Pretty much all US 50s-80s cars worked that way, but the wiring for red-beside-red is simpler, and is also directly compatible with a red-brake/amber turn which means that export cars just get a different lamp assembly. But red-beside-red is dangerous enough that almost all car companies have abandoned it and gone back to turn signal-overrides-brake when red turn signals are used (07-present Dodge trucks, for example, changed back after the 03-06 run of red-beside-red).

And then there's front/back conspicuity. Amber used to always mean "front of the car" and putting amber turn signals on the back can cause confusion. But generally there are other cues to tell you if you're seeing an amber front turn signal, or amber rear turn sig (don't get me started on how DRLs and people forgetting to turn on their headlamps because of always-on dashboard lighting have mucked up safety and made it more necessary to distinguish front from back because someone's driving without headlights on...)

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
What I don't like is the shared brake/turn signal (which my Cobalt has).

But worst of all is when people don't use whatever they have!



See my post about why shared is actually safer. And you're totally right about people forgetting what the dang stalk on the left of the wheel is for...

 

[eljefino]

An issue of "old American" is if someone is coming up on traffic in the middle #2 lane of a freeway, and is trying to escape to either side lane, signalling and frantically on and off the brake, one can't tell easily which lane they plan to bust over to. If I'm in either lanes #1 or #3 I'd worry that that car is about to cut in front of me, and need to know. Fortunately the CHMSL helps spell it out, but if a car is being followed and one doesn't see all three lights...

The flipside is that trailers hook up cheap and easy.

 

[exranger06]

The good thing about having a shared brake/turn signal bulb is if the brake light burns out, you'll know about it because the turn signal will do the rapid-flash. If the turn signal is a separate bulb, the brake light will be burned out, the turn signals still work fine, and the driver is competely oblivious that there's a problem with his lights. Every time I see a car with all of its brake lights burned out except the center stoplight, it's always a car that has separate turn signal bulbs.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
An issue of "old American" is if someone is coming up on traffic in the middle #2 lane of a freeway, and is trying to escape to either side lane, signalling and frantically on and off the brake, one can't tell easily which lane they plan to bust over to. If I'm in either lanes #1 or #3 I'd worry that that car is about to cut in front of me, and need to know.

The flipside is that trailers hook up cheap and easy.

You nailed the biggest weakness of that method. When someone is tap-dancing on the brakes, the rear light array looks like a Christmas tree (with all red lights) and it would be easier to make sense of an amber turn. But the center brake light helps resolve the ambiguity quickly.

Also have you noticed that now that all the lighting passes through the body controller, the manufacturers have done a great job of "de-bouncing" the brake light? You never see flickering/dancing brake lights as someone is lightly braking anymore.

 

[exranger06]

Oh and by the way, we've already discussed this issue once before

:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2435722&page=1

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: exranger06
The good thing about having a shared brake/turn signal bulb is if the brake light burns out, you'll know about it because the turn signal will do the rapid-flash. If the turn signal is a separate bulb, the brake light will be burned out, the turn signals still work fine, and the driver is competely oblivious that there's a problem with his lights. Every time I see a car with all of its brake lights burned out except the center stoplight, it's always a car that has separate turn signal bulbs.


More than one bulb doing exactly the same job per side is nice too. One bulb out is (usually) enough to trigger the rapid-flash, but the other bulb still works

 

[Hokiefyd]

I feel so strongly that all turn signal bulbs should be amber, that this is a major part of a vehicle purchase decision for me. A car must:

1) already have rear amber turn signals, or
2) be easy to convert to rear amber turn signals with OEM parts, or
3) have other *highly* compelling reasons to buy if 1 & 2 are not attainble.

 

[y_p_w]

Aren't amber turn signal lights a requirement in Europe?

Regardless of that, I've noticed some red turn signals that work with a set of LED arrows that "move" in the direction of the intended turn. That generally creates less confusion, especially since they only display an arrow for a turn and not a solid mass to indicate braking.

 

[rslifkin]

Amber is better, although some implementations of red turn signals (such as the sequential ones on the newer Mustangs) are plenty visible as well.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: rslifkin
Amber is better, although some implementations of red turn signals (such as the sequential ones on the newer Mustangs) are plenty visible as well.


And I've been told that "by the letter of the law," sequential signals aren't legal and weren't when Ford offered them on the 64-66 T-bird, either. But since they obviously do a great job, the regulators let Ford get away with it as a factory implementation. I LOVE the things. The new Challengers work very well with the Mopar sequential kit since there are 4 bulbs that can be sequenced instead of 3, too

But again, for everyone who unequivocally says "amber is better," I point you to the Range Rover, Toyota, and Mazda implementations that either had concentric red brake/ amber turn signals (Rover) or overlapping circles (Toyota, Mazda) as examples of amber signals that were worse in the real world than some red implementations.

Kinda bad:

also not great:

Worst amber signals ever created:

Note that only the red parking lamps are on and the amber is already being washed out- when the brake lights surrounding the amber are on, the amber just about looks red.


I'm 99.5% agreeing with everything Dan Stern has written on the subject, so why not link one of his articles? It shows some very good amber implementations (ironically on older US-built cars!) where the amber is spaced far enough apart from the red brake light so that the eye doesn't "blend" it with the red, even at a long distance:

http://www.acarplace.com/cars/turn-signals/

 

[SHOZ]

I have amber on both cars now and also on my older Taurus. On the Taurus there was a simple mod where you run a wire from an unused terminal on the turn signal switch to the brake light switch. It would then let the turn signal not in use also act as a brake light. If you just used brakes you had both amber and the red. It was bright as could be and really got peoples attention.

On my Genesis Coupe it has the clear covers and amber bulb. Put that looked [censored] and I got some silver turn signal bulbs that are amber when on.

What grinds my gears is white turn signal in front. I can't hardy see them at night when the headlights are on.

 

[mclasser]

The most bonehead taillight set up belongs to the otherwise very handsome Buick Regal. That red bulb you see behind the clear lens at the bottom right is both the brake light and turn signal. You have ALL that real estate above it that could have been used for a separate brake light but instead confined everything into that tiny section at the bottom. The rest of the setup only illuminates at night with the headlights on.

 

[Colt45ws]

Originally Posted By: eljefino
IMO the worst offender was the Crown vic that got amber rear blinkers on the 1998 redesign then dumped them after a year.

With so many being turned into cop cars it would be nice to have some normal lights for them to use to indicate what they're going to do, driving wise, in addition to the "I'm a cop and everything's flashing willy nilly" light package they display.

Similarly, on a shared brake light circuit, if the turn signal or hazard switch malfunctions, this can cut power for both brake lights, leaving just the center high mounted light working. This seems to curse Trailblazers.

But I agree, these red blinkers really grind my gears.

Somewhat incorrect. The Police Interceptor dumped them after '99 I want to say, actually; but civi panthers kept the amber signals through 2003.
Ive done some research and it wouldnt be too difficult to convert to the taillights with the amber section. There is a plug in the driver footwell that has a green wire running into the connector, and looping back around to another pin on the same connnector. If it were cut, the current bulbs would act as turn signals -only- and then another circuit could be run from there to the back for brake.
The only issue is that its a fairly important piece so the wiring, etc, would have to be done 100% correctly. If it were to fail, I fear legal repercussions.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted By: SHOZ
I have amber on both cars now and also on my older Taurus. On the Taurus there was a simple mod where you run a wire from an unused terminal on the turn signal switch to the brake light switch. It would then let the turn signal not in use also act as a brake light. If you just used brakes you had both amber and the red. It was bright as could be and really got peoples attention.

On my Genesis Coupe it has the clear covers and amber bulb. Put that looked [censored] and I got some silver turn signal bulbs that are amber when on.

What grinds my gears is white turn signal in front. I can't hardy see them at night when the headlights are on.


I've got amber on my 2004 WRX. The only thing that bugs me about them is that the lens is clear, and I have to find amber bulbs. I could find the clear versions easily, but not the amber ones, although I haven't bought any since I ordered a few from Daniel Stern years ago. However, this might not be that bad, because I see a lot of amber lenses tend to fade in color over time.

The thing I'm looking to find are those silver-looking bulbs that flash amber.

 

[SHOZ]

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