Red Line 10w30, 94 Civic, 260K

Patman · Mar 30, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by sprintman:
And your conventional oil rec for initial fill in an LS1?

If I got a new LS1, it would be a Corvette, since they no longer make the Camaro/Firebird anymore.

So that means no conventional oil, since the Vette requires synthetics.

But if I did manage to find a leftover new 2002 Firebird, I would probably run 10w40 Pennzoil or GTX for the initial few intervals.

sprintman · Mar 30, 2003

We have Castrol Magnatec 10W40 and maybe Pennzoil in 15W40. Tks...s

Ray H · Mar 30, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by wwalter:
I did have the coolant changed a few months ago (last fall) after the first episodes of odd behavior, ... but it recently warmed up here and I've now had one new case of "bouncing temperature gauge" syndrome. ... This was accompanied last fall by intermittent loss of heater output. (It seemed to need bleeding.)

Your bouncing temperature gauge needle and inconsistant heater performance do suggest there could be an airlock in your cooling systme. At least some Hondas do have a coolant air-bleed screw. (My only Honda experience was with a '96 Accord. Its air-bleed screw was a small hexagonal head screw on or near the thermostat housing, I think. The air-bleed was simplicity, itself. With the engine running and fully warmed and the heater control valve opened all the way, I just loosened, NOT removed, the air bleed screw to vent the air. When the loosened screw dribbled coolant without bubbles, it was time to retighten the screw.) Are you sure that when you had the coolant changed, the tech did the air bleed if applicable?

[ March 31, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Ray H ]

Bror Jace · Mar 31, 2003

I agree with Ray. Hondas can be difficult to bleed down and I suspect many are running around with air bubbles in their system and this can cause the gauge to fluctuate a great deal.

The bleeder screw is easy to get to ... just like Ray described. Try bleeding when the engine is very hot. Put a wrench on it, cover it with a rag and just crack it open. Coolant should shoot out like a drinking fountain.

Alternatively, it could also be a leaky headgasket ... although if that were the case, I'd expect your iron, lead and possibly copper to be higher ... at least somewhere in the double digits.

--- Bror Jace

mph · Mar 31, 2003

On his Civic, the air bleed is probably on the front of the engine, near where the upper radiator hose connects to the engine. The bleeder looks like a nut with a domed top, and there's a little hole in the dome for the coolant to come out of. Procedure is as described above.

This is the location on my 94 Civic del Sol Si, which is essentially a 92-95 Civic, mechanically.

There's a guy, Mista Bone, who is a 92-95 Civic expert and has lots of pictures of stuff in the engine compartment. Looking through the list, I'm pretty sure he stuck a temperature sender where the bleeder normally goes:

That's the distributor on the left, and the exhaust header on the right (stock heat shield removed).

wwalter · Mar 31, 2003

Ray/Bror/mph,

Thanks for your feedback on my cooling system weirdness.

The first episodes last year didn't closely follow any maintenance on the cooling system. I did bleed the system, and the problem didn't recur, but it was just about that time that the weather started cooling, so I was never sure if the underlying problem still existed. (The heater symptoms were no longer in evidence, but since I couldn't duplicate ambient temp at the time of the problem, I couldn't be sure about the "overheating" aspect.)

The next time I took it in to a shop (for new tires), I asked them to check for any evidence of head gasket leaks, which they didn't find (I'm not sure what they looked for exactly). They did recommend changing the fluid, though, based on pH, and I did have that done. I suppose it's possible that that shop left some air in the system again, so I'll try bleeding again.

So far this year, I've had only the one case of "bounce," a couple weeks ago. I think the heater is working okay.

Everyone,
As for the rest of the report, does anyone have any further comments on wear metals, oil filter choice, or oil weight? At this point, I think I'm sticking with Red Line 10w30 for the summer, but I might try an Mobil 1 filter to see if it makes any difference in "insolubles." I also have one Ultraguard Gold UPF1127--I really hope it doesn't show outstanding results, since I can't get any more of the darned things!

Thanks,
Andy

Bror Jace · Apr 1, 2003

wwalter, sorry, forgot to even comment much on the results. They look very good. Iron was your highest level and 10ppm after 5,600 miles is not bad at all.

Plus, the moly level of 535 suggests the oil is still in the process of "uptake" from the oil so your next results should be even better ... all other variables the same (but they rarely are). The surfaces are still pulling moly out of the formula and using it to form a protective barrier. The more this barrier is in place, the less wear will occur. So, I'd expect your next result to show even less wear.

One thing about a car with 260,000 miles on it, the esters in Red Line might be forever leaching old deposits out from deep dark spots throughout the engine. In other words, it is slowly cleaning 260,000 miles worth of old residue up and holding those bits in suspension. These will show up in your current lab analysis but should diminish with each subsequent oil change.

In other words, some of the particles showing up in that test might have worn off over a hundred thousand miles ago and settled in a film of sludge and are only now being dislodged by the Red Line oil. This means your good report might actually be even better than indicated.

--- Bror Jace

TooSlick · Apr 2, 2003

This analysis shows traces of both sodium and potassium, so I'd check to make sure their isn't an internal coolant leak. This would also help explain the high solids level and low TBN ....

TS

Bror Jace · Apr 2, 2003

TooSlick, I thought the same ... but then the really low lead level threw me.

Keep in mind, my car (same design) had a coolant leak (confirmed) and the results looked very different ... my lead was double digits. Copper was elevated as well.

--- Bror Jace

jason07-1zzfe · Apr 2, 2003

10-20ppm K is a RedLine add. Don't know about Na.

jason07-1zzfe · Apr 2, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Jason Troxell:
10-20ppm K is a RedLine add. Don't know about Na.

Same for sodium. (just looked up the VOA)

Doubt there is any leak.

wwalter · Apr 3, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
... the moly level of 535 suggests the oil is still in the process of "uptake" from the oil so your next results should be even better ... all other variables the same (but they rarely are).

Bror I'm sorry--I didn't make clear that this isn't my first use of RL. I've been using it (all 5w30 until this latest interval) for 50K or more. Checking various RL VOAs, though, I see why you suspected the moly was still being "taken up." Assuming this really isn't the case at this point, do you think we can chalk it up to RL's manufacturing tolerances, my batch having been a bit short-changed in the mixing vat (how do they blend the stuff anyway?)

quote:

Originally posted by Bror Jace:
... the esters in Red Line might be forever leaching old deposits out from deep dark spots throughout the engine.

I'm just finishing an Auto-RX application, so if indeed there's still pre-RL crud coming out of the metalwork, I'm hoping that this will put an end to it. Even if it doesn't, I'm pretty happy with the results as far as wear metals go.

Tooslick/Bror/Jason,
If there is no coolant contamination, do you have any other theories to account for the low TBN (for mileage) and high insolubles? And, again, does anyone know just what these insolubles usually consist of?

As always, thanks to all!

Andy

Terry · May 5, 2003

Andy, Welcome to the visible side of the BITOG board ! Good test results here. Nothing problematic evident in the testing except for this; Your insolubles ideally should be in the 0.3 -0.4 % range. This is an indication of incomplete combustion and possibly some compression leakage, due to the mileage on your 1.6. The oil consumption is a good clue that previous wear is affecting you somewhat.

Check out the plugs, wires, distributor cap, PCV,AIR FILTER, etc.

Start up noise in this engine can also be the injectors when a restrictive/well used fuel filter is pushing the pressure up.

Finally injectors could be worn or dirty. I recommend Fuel Power as a cleaner and constant use additive for the Fuel side.

The FP will drop the Insolubles by at least 0.1% and improve the overall operation of the fuel side equation. Your emissions test results will be positively affected.

Switch to a less restrictive oil filter, AC PF 1127 is my low cost favorite, or maybe the Wix that Patman has researched !

Welcome again !

Terry

[ May 05, 2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]

wwalter · May 5, 2003

All,

I'm resurrecting this post because there is new evidence that there may indeed be a head gasket problem. Please see my new post in the Mechanical Problems, Tips, and Tricks section...

Thanks!

Andy

jason07-1zzfe · May 5, 2003

I don't see your other post, but I am not seeing any evidence of contamination in this analysis.

Insolubles I believe is a combo of oxidation/nitration byproducts and other solids.

The "low" TBN and "high" insolubles are probably due to the high mileage and wear, i.e blowby, I would guess. Possible clean-up action going still too.

edit: Just read your other post and seems to me if they found HCs in the coolant, that answers that. It probably is possible that very small amounts could increase insolubles and decrease TBN a bit.

Viscosity has increased 1cSt. But then these things could probably be caused by overheating as well.

(and overheating can cause gasket problems too,chicken or egg..)
I'd believe the coolant test. Fix it yourself...plan ahead (it's not serious yet) and get all parts so you can do it in a weekend so you don't need a rental. If you can't do it yourself...it's probably not worth paying to fix, IMO...

[ May 05, 2003, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: Jason Troxell ]

Patman · May 5, 2003

quote:

Originally posted by Terry:

Switch to a less restrictive oil filter, AC PF 1127 is my low cost favorite, or maybe the Wix that Patman has researched !

Based on my very unscientific observations of the oil pressure gauge on my Firebird at full throttle, I'd say the Wix does flow better than the AC Delco. The Dana rep I spoke to also confirms they flow better (they make both filters up here) But if cost is no object the K&N oil filter flows better still.

Hopefully Bob's next round of testing includes an AC Delco filter.

Red Line 10w30, 94 Civic, 260K

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