Red Line 10w30, 94 Civic, 260K

[wwalter]

Hello all!

I finally decided to disengage my lurking device and post; I've been reading this stuff for months.

Just got my oil analyzed for the first time in a long time. The results look good to me, but I do have a couple of questions.

First the data:

Vehicle: 1994 Honda Civic with the 1.6l SOHC VTEC engine, a D16ZC, I think, for those who know the designations. 3.7 liter oil capacity. 260K miles.

Oil & interval: A mixture of Red Line 5w30 and 10w30, about half each, run for 5635 miles. Topped off with about 1 quart, bit by bit throughout the interval, with the add'l oil being all 10w30.

Filters: PureOne standard size oil; stock air.

Driving: About 85%/15% highway/city. The "city" driving is actually mostly stop and go on the highway.

Analysis: Blackstone, with TBN.

Sample "Universal Avg."
Aluminum: 3 11
Chromium: 1 3
Iron: 10 31
Copper: 4 16
Lead: 4 9
Tin: 1 2
Molybdenum: 535 79
Nickel: 0 1
Manganese: 1 1
Silver: 0 0
Titanium: 0 0

Potassium: 11 1
Boron: 22 63
Silicon: 23 15
Sodium: 23 51
Calcium: 3171 1402
Magnesium: 10 467
Phosphorus: 1154 857
Zinc: 1365 979
Barium: 0 7

SUS Visc., 210* F: 65.1
Flashpoint: 420* F
Fuel: less than 0.5%
Antifreeze: 0.0%
Water: 0.0%
Insolubles: 0.5%
TBN: 5.0


Now, I was happy to see that the aluminum wasn't too bad, as the sound of pistons slapping in the morning makes me fear for their health. Perhaps this is evidence supporting Red Line's (sometimes)observed ability to reduce the noise. Or perhaps not; what does everyone think?

The iron stands out by virtue of reaching double digits, but I don't know if this means anything. I believe my engine has iron cylinder liners, but it seems to me that Fe should win out over Al when the 2 clash, so I assume this is not related to my piston slap, and 10 may be a completely normal reading.

Lead has been high in a number of Honda/Acura analyses I've seen here, but mine's not. I wonder why? I mostly drive 75-80 mph (when I'm not doing 0-10 in first gear), and only exceed 4000 RPM a couple times a week, but when I do, it's because I'm going all out. However, it does seem to be higher when compared to the "universal average" than most of the other wear metals, so maybe I *am* losing lead at a relatively high rate. Opinions?

Moly: Check! We got moly!

Silicon was flagged by Blackstone, but not as critical. Having seen some VOAs of Red Line with 16 or 17 ppm of silicon, I'm hoping that it's just anti-foaming agents or some such, along with an acceptablly low contribution from actual dirt.

I see that both phosphorus and zinc are considerably higher than the "universals," many or most of which probably used SL-rated oils; does this mean that Red Line still has a good dose of ZDDP? I don't know the stoichiometric ratios, but the relationship between the 2 seems similar to the universals, and what else would these two elements come from?

Antifreeze/water: This is the main reason I decided to do this analysis--I was afraid, given some recent temperature gauge antics and an apparent loss of coolant, that my head gasket was dying. Seems not, but I suppose it's possible (?) that all the water was boiled off by the highway miles. What other elements should I keep an eye on? What do they check to come up with the antifreeze percentage?

What the heck are insolubles? Blackstone advised me to extend the OCI to 7500 miles, but to change the filter at 5000 to keep these in check. I don't think I'll be doing this--if I'm going to get under the car, which is a pain, I'm changing everything. I recall seeing a link somewhere here at Bob's to a test run by someone in which he found that Mobil 1 filters gave the lowest "unwanted stuff" concentrations in his oil. Does anyone think that M1 would be better than PureOne for the next change? (I have followed the flow vs. efficiency debate, and I understand both sides, but I'm not ready to sacrifice efficiency. I don't run long periods at high RPMs, and if I bypass a little when pulling out of the toll booth, I'm not too worried about it.)

Finally, the TBN. Blackstone says it's still okay, but I wonder if it didn't drop off more steeply than expected under my driving conditions.

There, that was short & sweet, wasn't it

? I welcome any and all observations & comments.

Thanks guys,

Andy

 

[Drew99GT]

Have you ever had a valve lash adjustment made to your engine? I suspect the noise in the mornings is excessive valve lash, not piston slap. Honda engines aren't known to have excessive piston slap, and with over 200K, your most likely hearing excessive clearence between your valves and the shims/lifters/rockers. As far as coolent, keep an eye on both the coolent level and oil level and also both of their conditions. If you continually see a los of coolent and a greyer than normal/milky tint to your oil, then I'd have it checked. You may want to go ahead and have a pressure test done on your cooling system and have it completely serviced with fresh coolent and a new thermostat if your gauge has been climbing higher than normal. Oh, and

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

that's a pretty **** good analysis for that engine with that many miles, copper and lead look real good as do most other indicators.

Did you notice if that "morning" noise lessened when using Redline Oil ?, I've heard a few people say that. Most Hondas make a different noise when they are cold, as compared to hot, not sure what that is but I've noticed it on all my Hondas.

 

[wwalter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drew99GT:
Have you ever had a valve lash adjustment made to your engine? I suspect the noise in the mornings is excessive valve lash, not piston slap. Honda engines aren't known to have excessive piston slap, and with over 200K, your most likely hearing excessive clearence between your valves and the shims/lifters/rockers.

---

Hi Drew,

Honda calls for a valve lash adjustment every 30K, and I think I've kept pretty much to that schedule. Several times I thought the noise had diminished a bit or (once or twice) even gone away entirely, but then I would start it up one cooler-than-average morning and it would be back as bad as ever. This has been going on since shortly before 100K, although before I returned to using Red Line oil, it had gotten louder and longer over time. Red Line does seem to help. It's never been diagnosed officially, but there have been others whose Civics have the same noise, and I think it's generally agreed that it's PS.

quote:

---

As far as coolent, keep an eye on both the coolent level and oil level and also both of their conditions. If you continually see a los of coolent and a greyer than normal/milky tint to your oil, then I'd have it checked. You may want to go ahead and have a pressure test done on your cooling system and have it completely serviced with fresh coolent and a new thermostat if your gauge has been climbing higher than normal.

---

I did have the coolant changed a few months ago (last fall) after the first episodes of odd behavior, and nothing was amiss through the winter months, but it recently warmed up here and I've now had one new case of "bouncing temperature gauge" syndrome. It never really overheats, but it does rise above the 1/2-way mark, and will sometimes rapidly fall to normal as well (but not so rapidly that I suspect an electrical glitch). This was accompanied last fall by intermittent loss of heater output. (It seemed to need bleeding.) I've never seen any ominous signs in the oil or the coolant (which I haven't looked at very often, except for the level), and the analysis is reassuring, at least for now.

Andy


Oh, and what in the world is this

supposed to signify? Oh, now I see the name of the thing! Well, I am happy to have joined the board.

 

[wwalter]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil:
Did you notice if that "morning" noise lessened when using Redline Oil ?, I've heard a few people say that. Most Hondas make a different noise when they are cold, as compared to hot, not sure what that is but I've noticed it on all my Hondas.

---

Yes, Red Line seems to damp it down considerably, but on cold mornings, it's still painful to hear. It also seems to go away a bit sooner with Red Line. But I wouldn't swear that either of those perceptions is actually true... Just seems that way.

Edited for subject/verb agreement!
Andy

[ March 24, 2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: wwalter ]

 

[vettenuts]

Does anyone else think the TBN is low, especially since there was relatively lows miles on this oil and there was make-up oil?

 

[sprintman]

I'ld like to see the results if you had 50/50 Redline 5W30/5W40. I'd be surprised if results were not better IMO.

 

[Idrinkmotoroil]

quote:

---

Originally posted by vettenuts:
Does anyone else think the TBN is low, especially since there was relatively lows miles on this oil and there was make-up oil?

---

we often see erroneous TBN estimates when it comes to Redline oil tests, something about the ester composition throwing off the estimates by most labs. Not totally sure as to the reason, bit it has been explained on this site quite often, thus TBN numbers on Redline used oil analysis are not to be regarded as very accurate.

 

[G-MAN]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drew99GT:
Honda engines aren't known to have excessive piston slap,

---

Are you kidding? Between me and other members of my family, we've owned half a dozen Hondas, and they've ALL had significant piston slap, especially when they had over 100K miles on the clock.

 

[slider]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Idrinkmotoroil:
[/qb]

---

we often see erroneous TBN estimates when it comes to Redline oil tests, something about the ester composition throwing off the estimates by most labs. Not totally sure as to the reason, bit it has been explained on this site quite often, thus TBN numbers on Redline used oil analysis are not to be regarded as very accurate. [/QB][/QUOTE]

That's not what I've read. It's the oxidation readings that can be meaningless with some lab equipment. Blackstone doesn't give these readings, just a single insolubles figure.

Nonetheless, this TBN of 5 does seem a bit low, maybe because of wear from a lot of blowby due to the high miles. And/or maybe this engine isn't very clean inside and the TBN depletion is due to cleaning. If the next sample has better TBN retention that might explain things.

The wear metals look quite fine. No problems at all.

 

[Bror Jace]

slider, I'm pretty sure it was Red Line's TBN which was skewed by many labs. Terry wrote something about this a while back ... and I mean a WHILE back. Samples he tested showed almost no degradation even after 5,000 miles.

--- Bror Jace

 

[wwalter]

Sprintman,

I've been thinking about switching to a Xw40 for the summer months to see if it reduces consumption. I only recently heard about Red Line 5w40 and am tempted to try it, but my local Red Line guy didn't have it last time I stopped in. Which measures do you think would improve if I went with either the combo you mentioned or with straight 5w40?

All,

I too thought that it was the oxidation number, not the TBN, that comes up strange with RL, but I haven't searched to confirm this yet...

Slider,

I think it's safe to assume that I do indeed have increased blow-by at this mileage, but is there any good way to judge how serious it is?

The engine looks clean through the oil filler opening and once with the valve cover removed (I'm just a curious layman when it comes to anything beyond oil changes, but was permitted to watch a valve adjustment at about 230K.) Even so, I did purchase some Auto-RX and am near (or past) the end of the first application, mileage-wise. The oil looks oddly clean at this point (as I've sent mentioned in other Auto-RX topics). We'll see.

What is the relationship between oxidation and these "insolubles"? (I can only think of Elliot Ness when I type that.)

Edit: Maybe this is relevant, maybe not. Maryland has an emissions-testing program under which someone drives the car on a treadmill while tyhe exhaust is analyzed. In the past, my car has always been very much below the limits for HC and CO, but this time (couple weeks back), the nasty stuff had climbed to about 40% to 60% of the limit. The guy who tested it said I "almost failed" (At least I think that's what he said--he had a heavy accent.) I guess this could be affecting the crud content of the oil?

Andy

[ March 27, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: wwalter ]

 

[wwalter]

OT alert!

Oh, and speaking of insolubles, I'm reminded of an amusing, semi-geeky little one-liner that I've never been able to use in everyday conversation without having to deal with groans. On the Internet nobody can hear you groan, so I'll give it a try here, why not?

"If you're not part of the solution...

[pause]


You're part of the precipitate!"

There! Maybe I'm odd, but that just tickles me.

 

[sprintman]

wwalter - Thers an excellent set of figures in analysis section of Red Line 5W40. I suggested a 50/50 5W30/5W40 mix as CAFE induced thinking here woould get me 'shot down' if I suggested the straight 5W40. But I've noticed a growing trend here lately to look at viscosity for the same engine outside the U.S and it has many re-considering 40W.

 

[Patman]

quote:

---

Originally posted by sprintman:
wwalter - Thers an excellent set of figures in analysis section of Red Line 5W40. I suggested a 50/50 5W30/5W40 mix as CAFE induced thinking here woould get me 'shot down' if I suggested the straight 5W40. But I've noticed a growing trend here lately to look at viscosity for the same engine outside the U.S and it has many re-considering 40W.

---

Nothing wrong with a 5w40 at all. I think a lot of engines would do well with a 40wt on the thinner side of 40. I just don't think too many engines would benefit from a thick 40 to a 50wt oil that's all.

 

[sprintman]

Ahh Patman you've changed yer tune. As an LS1 owner you should try 40W IMO (or a mix at least). GM here has a massive problem with Gen III's and I see it's now been on TV and even made the cover of this months Wheels car mag. Says "SICK:- what ails Holdens Gen III V8?". Basically they are using oil like water. The HSV versions use Mobil 1 10W30 which is a low end 30W to start with. I have to select a dino running in oil for a mates Commodore SS as as there's a new engine waiting at the dealer (had been rebuilt already and was worse). What do you suggest? Pennzoil Purebase 10W30 SL is available and a mid 30 i'm told?

 

[Drew99GT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by G-Man II:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Drew99GT:
Honda engines aren't known to have excessive piston slap,

---

Are you kidding? Between me and other members of my family, we've owned half a dozen Hondas, and they've ALL had significant piston slap, especially when they had over 100K miles on the clock.

---

Really?

I had a GSR Integra for a while, and hang around with the street racing "rice" crowd and none of them have any piston slap problems I've heard of. Hmmmmm

 

[Patman]

I haven't really changed my tune too much Sprintman, I've been saying for about 4 or 5 months now that I believe the LS1 engines would see lower wear numbers with an oil in the 12-13cst range, so a high 30/low 40. I still maintain that 50wt oils are not needed.

I would definitely be using 0w40 Mobil 1 if I still had my LS1, but remember, I traded that car back in Nov 2000. I'm now driving an LT1 Firebird (which I also believe would like an oil in that range, but for now I'm going to try out 0w30 SLX, which is 12.1 cst at 100c)

 

[sprintman]

And your conventional oil rec for initial fill in an LS1?

 

[buster]

quote:

---

growing trend here lately to look at viscosity for the same engine outside the U.S and it has many re-considering 40W.

---

That would be me ofcourse!

Patman sounds like me, only I change my tune much more often.

I posted something about the wts. and oil pressure in the oil section. Even though I've been inclined to think a heavier wt. is better sometimes, and that most other countries run higher wts., it's not always the case. TS made a good point that it's the optimun oil pressure that your concerned with and that too heavy of an oil, like a 50wt., will actually do more harm then good. The oil won't circulate as fast and the engine will run more hot. Mobil 1 0w-40 is a nice weight oil IMO. I'm even having second thoughts on there light 30 wt. oils, and realizing there very good. Take a look at where the 5w30 Mobil 1 out performed Mobil 1 0w-40 in an Impala in HOUSTON! I'm on the Mobil 1 bandwagon again. There 0w30 is horrible though...at least in my engine.

[ March 30, 2003, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: buster ]