Red Line 10w-40 in '89 BMW 2.5L for 4873 miles

[TooSlick]

Jason,

It may be time to think about new fuel injectors...

The orifices or "pintles" of the injectors open up after 150k-200k miles, due to erosive wear from very small fuel particles. When this happens you lose you ability to finely disperse the fuel, as well as combustion efficiency. Fuel injector cleaners won't solve this problem as it is due to wear and not deposits ....

If you plan to keep the vehicle for more than 2-3 more years, I'd pop for new injectors/seals. You'll see noticably better driveability and power, along with better fuel efficiency.

Ted

 

[Bror Jace]

"It may be time to think about new fuel injectors. The orifices or 'pintles' of the injectors open up after 150k-200k miles, due to erosive wear from very small fuel particles. When this happens you lose you ability to finely disperse the fuel, as well as combustion efficiency. Fuel injector cleaners won't solve this problem as it is due to wear and not deposits."

I can't wait until we see direct injection gas engines after 100,000+ miles. Let's see how the pintle of injectors hold up to the same old wear forces PLUS the heat and pressure of the combustion chamber.

--- Bror Jace

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Thanks Ted. Yes I will be keeping this car until the body falls apart

And the rust is begining to show up, I really need to start on some bodywork spring/summer coming up. Winter sucks.

I was thinking about that...I'm aware of the wear that occurs, but why don't any of my other UOA's show fuel? Even the one immediately before this. Maybe Schaeffer uses a different method to test for fuel? And they don't test flash... But my other Blackstone did not show fuel either. Granted that was over 25k miles ago. Actually the flash then was 390F, maybe you are right. And actually I just rembered...I read here that Schaeffer does NOT even test for fuel unless the vis is out of grade!
Injectors are about the only option...I know this car like the back of my hand and everything else is either replaced/fairly new and/or tested. Injectors are definitely clean as a whistle, same for intake valves. Just had intake off to replace gasket.
Only thing is about your driveability and power comments, I have no issues there...

 

[jsharp]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bror Jace:
"It may be time to think about new fuel injectors. The orifices or 'pintles' of the injectors open up after 150k-200k miles, due to erosive wear from very small fuel particles. When this happens you lose you ability to finely disperse the fuel, as well as combustion efficiency. Fuel injector cleaners won't solve this problem as it is due to wear and not deposits."

I can't wait until we see direct injection gas engines after 100,000+ miles. Let's see how the pintle of injectors hold up to the same old wear forces PLUS the heat and pressure of the combustion chamber.

--- Bror Jace

---

No kidding. Remember the first metal injectors used in TBI systems? $100+ each rebuilt. Now multiply this X 8...

 

[Mike242GT]

Jason:

If your gas mileage fall-off showed up all of a sudden rather than gradually, I'd suspect your fuel pressure regulator. I'm guessing this is a Bosch LH-Jetronic system. The regulators can fail two ways; by not giving sufficient pressure, in which case you'd see a loss of top-end power, and by giving too much pressure, in which case you'd see a drop in mileage (and probably fuel in the oil). Probably some spark plug issues and black sooty exhaust as well.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Well it was kind of in between. It was gradual over a year to year and half's time. So definitely not an overnight thing. Seems to have been dropping slowly over the past 1.5yrs. Mostly by my memory though. I have only started keeping real records the past 5-6 months maybe. And the current tank I am on absolutely blows.

No black smoke. Plugs are perfect. And actually my regulator is only ~3yrs old.

It's Motronic 1.3.

Thanks

 

[Drew99GT]

Cold weather and reformulated gas?

I've noticed the same thing too lately; seems to happen every year as the colder weather approaches. In summertime, I could go about 350-360 miles before my gas light comes on; now I'm lucky to get over 270-280.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

I was getting about 2mpg better last year at this time with the same commute.
Yes the winter gas has less energy, it always kills mpg but I don't think that's it. I don't think they even switched to summer formulation this year. I read somewhere that the refineries were having probs switching. And mpg has been low on other car as well. Got a couple good tanks then never came back. No further dropping of mpg on that car.

And the winter gas wouldn't cause it to get in the oil.

I think Ted is right, but I will wait for Terry's opinion too before I go spending $220. I don't think my 390F flash over 25k ago was quite normal either.

 

[Bill J.]

Jason I vote for a change in oxygen sensor, if it hasn't been replaced in the last 100K. The older vintage Bosch engine management systems (circa 89') cannot compensate for an overly rich condition quickly enough to thwart fuel contamination, influenced by a slowly failing oxygen sensor. This circumstance will not set a code, so you would think everything is okay. I had the same fuel contamination and mileage decrease as you reported, but one a 92'. A new oxygen sensor solved the problem.

The new Bosch engine management systems are much quicker to adapt to changing conditions, and will set a code if conditions are more than 2% out of acceptable parameters. This is not the case with the older ones.

 

[JohnBrowning]

When you consider that this is a rinse cyle and it is fuel diluted it is a good report. THe wear metals were not bad at all! Jason would you please keep cutting open your filters until you no longer see sludge in them? I am curious to see how long you continue to get sludge removal after the last Auto-Rx treatment. THis is especialy true since you are useing Redline oil!

 

[Robbie Alexander]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill J.:
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
The new Bosch engine management systems are much quicker to adapt to changing conditions, and will set a code if conditions are more than 2% out of acceptable parameters. This is not the case with the older ones.

---

What about this 2%?
What does this relate to?
Can it relate to Strength of fuel, Air, what?

 

[Bill J.]

The 2% parameters are set by Bosch, are their own, having been designed to reduce emissions, maximize economy, etc., while still providing adequate performance throughout a wide range of operating conditions. The newer systems have a tighter control limit. EPA standards.

Typically rich fuel condition = up to 0.9 volts
lean fuel condition = down to 0.1 volts
equilibrium about .45 volts

According to the Bosch Corp. replacing a degraded oxygen sensor with a new one will increase fuel efficiency by 10-15%. An oxygen sensor works like a miniature generator and produces it's own voltage when it gets hot. When the ECU receives a rich signal from the O2 sensor it leans the fuel mixture to reduce the sensor's reading. When the O2 sensor reading goes lean the computer reverses again, making the fuel mixture go rich. The constant flip-flopping back and forth of the fuel mixture occurs at different speeds depending on the individual fuel system in use. Multi-port injection systems do this five to seven times a second at 2,500 rpms.

If the tired O2 sensor doesn't produce the higher voltage which would "tell" the ECU that a rich condition exists, the older ECU won't lean out the overly rich fuel condition. The ECU "should" set an O2 sensor diagnostic code if the sensor does not produce a signal, stays rich too long, stays lean too long, doesn't switch rich/lean or switch lean/rich fast enough. The older systems will operate within a wider range of varying engine conditions without "setting a code." This is where the newer systems outperform the older ones, like 10 year old systems. The newer systems operate within a tighter acceptable standard, and any condition which would cause a failure over a 2% limit would set a code. The older systems are not that precise.

Old system + tired O2 sensor = drop in economy + fuel dilution.

As a practical matter at the dealer I use, on a car with 100K or more, when no other part of the fuel or ignition system is found to be the likely cause, the O2 sensor generally the culprit.

 

[JohnBrowning]

Look how much moly was used up protecting this engine. Now in this case if the oil had only had say 60-150 ppm of moly you would have been chemical in the hole!! So it would apear that inspite of the continued cleaning going on in the system, the fuel dilution etc... The oil still protected well! SO while under ideal conditions we do not alwyas see the big picture. There has been at least 2-3 other cases were under extreme conditions like 5% fule dilution or coolant leak due to bad head gasket were redline has still turned in decent numbers.
It is something to consider.

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

1989 BMW 325is (2.5L inline-6)
Red Line 10w-40
BMW oil filter
Fuel Power used in all gas
Blackstone Labs w/Dyson Package #46

This is immediately after third AutoRX treatment (with Superflo oil) so, it's technically a rinse cycle AND a first run of RL. Oil filter was loaded up again! Mainly chunks of carbon but some sparklies too.
UOA with ARX in it is posted here as well.
Finally I think I should be able to get some consecutive runs of RL in after this.

I don't know what's up with the fuel. Waiting for Terry to get back. It's bothersome to me. I've never had fuel in the oil before. And my mpg seems low as well (obviously a connection there

).

code:

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MI/HR ON OIL 4,873

MI/HR ON UNIT 184,090

SAMPLE DATE 11/19/03

MAKEUP OIL ADDED ~1 QT.

.

ALUMINUM 5

CHROMIUM 1

IRON 14

COPPER 17

LEAD 7

TIN 1

MOLYBDENUM 424

NICKEL 0

MANGANESE 0

SILVER 0

TITANIUM 0

POTASSIUM 12

BORON 8

SILICON 16

SODIUM 11

CALCIUM 2487

MAGNESIUM 11

PHOSPHORUS 1067

ZINC 1209

BARIUM 0

.

SUS VIS @210F 70.9

FLASH 340F

FUEL% 1.8

A/F% 0.0

WATER% 0.0

INSOLUBLES % 0.2

TBN 2.6

---

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Thanks Bill. The oxy sensor is only about 20k old. I'll have to check my records. I replace about every 60k. And I tested it when looking at another problem only a few months ago. Voltages are within range and it's responding properly and quickly. Even tested them while driving. Loosening AFM flap increased voltage, and vice versa. At idle disconnecting FP reg increases voltage and creating a vacuum leak decreases voltage...etc, etc.... I have a new AFM now...(that one was worn out) I haven't messed with the new one so don't worry about that.
I wasn't kidding when I said everything else is fairly new or at least tested

But I still welcome any other ideas...it's possible I missed something.

No problem John, I'm curious too, so I'll be cutting all my filters open until the carbon deposits are no longer there.

 

[joee12]

Hey Jason, maybe God is trying to tell you that it's time to upgrade to a 2004 M3

-Joe

 

[jason07-1zzfe]

Sure God, I don't need my house.

At least it is a 4-seater so we can all sleep in it. Or were you making an offer Joe?

I always knew you were a good guy! Thanks man.

 

[Patman]

Hey, if Joe is giving out early Christmas presents, I'll take a C5 Corvette! Mine doesn't even need to be new, I'll be happy with a used one Joe! Just be sure it's automatic and any color except black, red or silver. (red and silver are too common, black is too hard to keep clean on a daily driver)

 

[Motorbike]

Joe gives out motor oil for Xmas.....

Put me on the list for some Fuchs Titan GT

 

[Patman]

quote:

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Hey Jason and Patman, maybe we can all just live in at a Bobistheoilguy commune somewhere in tents. At least we would have awesome rides(Ford GT for me please)

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Believe me, if I was still a single man, I'd be living in a tiny little shack of a house, but would be driving a brand new Vette.