Real Chamois - NO FAKE CHAMOIS posts please

[Pablo]

What are true negatives of Real Chamois? Please list.

REQUIRED READING FOR THIS THREAD

Try NOT to recommend a replacement. Keep it short. NEGATIVES OF CHAMOIS ONLY.

I know there are a bazillion synthetic products. I know it will be tough for the BITOG crowd but please do NOT POST a fake "chammy" that you like.

NO POSTING OF FAKE CHAMOIS IN THIS THIS THREAD.

PS It's perfectly acceptable to discuss REAL chamois treatment here, but NO FAKE CHAMOIS posts please.

 

[Corvette Owner]

Here from search using your title:

Ask the Chamois Man

Question: Why should I use a chamois instead of some other drying material to dry my car?

Answer: Because tests have shown that genuine chamois leather is the least abrasive drying material for any auto surface. With today’s new softer car finishes, this is more critical than ever.

Question: Is it true that chamois will remove my wax?

Answer: No, if chamois is the proven gentlest drying material, it only stands to reason that it is least likely to affect the finish of your car.

Question: Why are some other materials that I see marketed as chamois not real chamois?

Answer: Because some companies and individuals are not familiar with the FTC Opinion from 1964 that clearly defines what can be called a chamois. The full Opinion can be located on our web site. The trade organization called the Sponge and Chamois Institute has over the past several decades enforced with 100% success the use of the name chamois. If a product is falsely claiming to be chamois, the Institute will contact them to cease and desist.

Question: How do I clean my chamois?

Answer: The best way to clean your chamois after use is to rinse in out in a clean water. If you choose, you may add a mild soap (what you wash you car with) to the water. Then just wring your chamois out and hang it up to dry away from direct sunlight.

Question After several uses, my chamois starts to get hard when it is dry, what is up with that?

Answer: That is natural. As your chamois is used repeatedly, some of the oils go out of the skin. As soon as you rewet your chamois it will bounce back to its usual soft self and after wringing out will be ready to dry your car.

Question: How long will my chamois last?

Answer: This is a great question and one of the most common. My standard response is anywhere from 5 minutes to 5 years! Really, a chamois that is not exposed to harsh chemicals and is treated correctly should give you years of enjoyment. If it is soaked in gasoline or other harsh chemicals and not properly cleaned or dried, the chamois will prematurely age. So the answer is, that if you take good care of your chamois, it will take good care of you. Of course, the number of cars and frequency of use will also have an effect on the life of your chamois.

Question: Aren’t chamois expensive?

Answer: Your chamois should cost you less per use than the water and soap cost, literally pennies per car wash, and it will also protect and enhance the finish of your car.

From my Corvette Forum:

Chamois Leather

Genuine chamois leather is a unique and natural product, which is extremely soft, flexible, and absorbent. Typically chamois leather is used to dry off surfaces after washing; this is due to the absorbency and softness of the leather, the particles are held within the hollow fibre of the leather, eliminating abrasion.

The chamois needs to be damp, but not wet to work, it is made by splitting the skin into two pieces; the selected sheepskins are 100% cod oil tanned to give the luxurious, golden, soft finish that can absorb six times its weight of water. Place the damp chamois flat on the paint surface and pull towards you

A Micro fibre towel

Woven in a pique (waffle weave texture) is a machine washable alternative that you don't have to soak before use, but use damp and it releases dirt, brake dust and stains much easier that natural chamois, it doesn't dry hard, is very absorbent, easier to wring out and it will not `shed' and lasts longer and is less expensive than its natural counterpart.

The inherent problem of any flat weave drying towel; is that it breaks the surface tension to ‘lift’ the water from the surface along with any protective wax. Modem synthetic materials have gained ground and the use of chamois is being replaced by Micro fibre waffle weave technology as they hold more water (approx. 5 times more water, therefore require wringing out less often) and will not `pull' wax from a paint surface as the ‘dimpled ‘pattern of the towel allows air pockets that do not allow surface tension ‘lift’ like a flat towel surface

MY PERSONAL OPINION:

I have used Chamois (I had an MG Car years ago). I now use a "water blade" and microfibere cloths to dry my car.

 

[matrass]

the biggest downfall for a Chamois from a detailer perspective is fairly simple answer for me. the material is flat with no pockets for any dirt debris that it could come in contact with. any contaminate will be left to rub on the clear coat as if is drug across the surface. I also found that while they do absorb water well there are other products that do it better and dry on one pass. for me I prefer one pass drying as the more you rub the paint the more marring that can occur, not to mention less chance of any water spots being left to dry on your ride.

 

[skyactiv]

Get yourself an S.M. Arnold Prince of Wales chamois.

 

[Clevy]

I use air to dry my car. The car washes I go to all have an air nipple in the bay, rubber tipped. I use it to blow off the water. Simple,and free.

When I'm at home I just use my compressor. No streaks,no mess and no effort.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Con: holds less water than a synthetic version (ex. Absorber).

Pro: Better than anything else other than an Absorber?

 

[JHZR2]

I blow my cars off with a leaf blower to remove most water, then use a microfiber waffle weave towel. Works great. I've used chamois before, but the drying hard after some uses gets annoying, as does the apparent. End to drag it across the surface.


So I'm afraid of those and water blades, because no matter how well you've washed your car, there is always a chance for particles.

 

[BMWTurboDzl]

Originally Posted By: JHZR2
I blow my cars off with a leaf blower to remove most water, then use a microfiber waffle weave towel. Works great. I've used chamois before, but the drying hard after some uses gets annoying, as does the apparent. End to drag it across the surface.


So I'm afraid of those and water blades, because no matter how well you've washed your car, there is always a chance for particles.


OT: I pat try my car. No pulling..ever.

 

[flanso]

Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Get yourself an S.M. Arnold Prince of Wales chamois.

+1

 

[Nyati]

I used to use a chamois. No more, It does take your wax off.

I use a lawn bower to blow off as much water as possible - has to be electric - not gas- gas can spray a very fine oil film. Finally I use a "waffle weave" micro fiber towel after blowing off as much water as possible.

 

[qwertydude]

The very first reason Chamois Man gives is completely wrong. Today's newer finishes are actually harder than ever. I know because my Ford Focus was pretty hard paint. And then switching up to my new Cadillac I've found perhaps THE hardest paint I've ever encountered. It took Ultimate Compound and the high speed on my DA just to get minor swirls out.

And the "science" posted about pulling wax with a flat weave is dubious at best. A flat weave (plush) towel will dry just as well as a waffle weave. The main difference is that waffle weave will hold more water, ie less wringing out. But the plush towel will dry just as effectively and not leave a trail of water which can turn into tiny water spots.


And especially as a Corvette owner you should realize that it too uses the same ultrahard GM clear that's been in use since the C5.

And if someone is concerned about the scratches that perhaps a synthetic chamois like the absorber can inflict (which it won't) why then switch to a water blade which perhaps has the biggest chance of actually dragging a lone dirt particle across your paint. You may clean the paint perfectly but unless you're in a clean room there's every chance possible that floating dirt can settle between the time you rinse and the time you dry.

 

[09328ix]

+1 On the blow dry except I use a leaf blower. As It covers a bigger area than a compressor. And its also safer than a compressor as they usually have rusty moisture in the tank spraying that and possibly small rust scales on your nice new car. Leaf blower gets the water out of every nook and cranny. Especially the mirrors you know when you drive after a wash and the mirror water blows all over the side of a freshly washed car. Yes I'am that anal about my car being spotless. After blowing I use a Guzzler waffled weave drying towel by cobra from Autogeek. For any remaining drops of water. ie. inside door jambs,hood and trunk channels. My experience with just a chamois is that it just smears the water across the surface Also if it does pick up any dirt it is bound to leave micro scratches in your finish. Whereas a Guzzler soaks the water and any specks of dirt up leaving a smear & scratch free surface. I'am curious to know why you are so intent on using a chamois in the first place. As I thought they went out with the cabbage patch doll.

 

[DBMaster]

Finally, someone who appreciates the natural chamois. I have been using them since 1984 and don't see any reason to change. Mine last about ten years. Maybe I wash less than most (about once a month). I have not found a synthetic equivalent so far that dries windows as streak-free as a real chamois. It is also completely safe for tint film. A friend who was really into detailing told me a number of years ago that a chamois removed wax, but that has to be wrong since I kept original paint in great condition on an '89 Accord for 23 years drying with a chamois and using Meguiar's cleaner/wax (the cheap stuff) four times a year. With my current vehicle I am down to once a year due to much better paint and continuous "indoor" parking - garage at home and parking garage at work.

 

[tightwad]

Originally Posted By: skyactiv
Get yourself an S.M. Arnold Prince of Wales chamois.


These are excellent. I've used them for decades(really). The John Bull brand was good, but
I haven't seen them locally in a long time.

IMO, a real chamois will dry paint better than anything, with no small spots left behind. The only real drawback to a chamois is the price. If you know someone in a shop that washes or details cars, ask where they get their chamois. There are still a few truck peddlers left that sell detailing supplies. You might be able to score a big, thick chamois for a decent price.

 

[The Critic]

I don't know of any high-end detailers who use a chamois.

Try sheeting off the water and then using a Microfiber Madness Drying Towel.

And qwertydude, you just happened to run across two cars that have hard paint. There are still many, many cars out there with soft paints.

 

[qwertydude]

No, that's two cars with some of the hardest paints around. If you were detailing in the 1990's you'd be able to chronicle the ups and downs of the available paint types. Right before clearcoats became the defacto norm you had you single stage enamels, and arcylic enamels and they were relatively soft, but they were very thick so could be repeatedly compounded and with quite gritty polishes and it actually ended up pretty good. They behaved quite like gelcoats in that the paint would have some give to it which meant the large abrasive particles wouldn't show trails as badly. You wouldn't get the sharpness in the reflection though like modern clearcoats polished to a high shine and if you did it would simply oxidze just that much quicker back to a dull color.

Then urethane based clear coats came around in the 1980's. They were a little harder than the single stages. And those single stages actually could be polished to a decent gloss by hand with relatively coarse abrasive. This new harder clear needed finer abrasives as the coarse abrasives literally chewed through the thinner clearcoat layer and also left terrible looking swirls because the harder paint didn't give like the older, softer and thicker single stages. Hence it was during these times that everyone was advertising clearcoat safe abrasives because the older stuff was just simply too coarse/

In the 1990's stricter VOC regulations prompted the water based acrylics from the factories. These were initially a disaster. You've no doubt seen 1990's Chevrolet pickup trucks with failing clearcoat within about 3 years. I always see these in particular on the popular teal color and gold color, they ALWAYS had peeling clear. The clear was too soft, too thin, and oxidized too easily. It was simply too easy to damage this stuff.

Then as the years passed in the late 90's clears finally became harder again, and even surpassing the hardness of the 1980's when they were urethane. But unlike the urethane they don't have the give like urethane does so even though the paint is hard I find these ultrahard clears a little more difficult to correct.

So over the years clearcoat hardness has definitely varied. But in all once everything got sorted out you gradually saw clearcoats getting harder and harder. Some of them now even use special scratch resistant coatings like you see on scratch resistant sunglass lenses. My Rayban sunglasses in particular have such a hard coating not even 2000 grit wetsanding so much as dulls the gloss, I had a small scratch I thought I could polish out but no luck. It's simply too hard to fix. And that's sorta the level we seem to be headed. Well at least for American, German, and Korean cars as they tend to use German originated clearcoat formulas.

The Japanese on the other hand who also played a major role in the whole clearcoat revolution don't seem to be on the same path. They seem to still be about as hard as when they started it all in the 1980's, maybe a little harder as some newer Japanese cars definitely outlasted my parents' original 1988 Accord which came in a beautiful Metallic blue but peeled in only 8 years, it got an occasional waxing but not seriously detailed. They've made some progress as I do notice some of their cars do have clearcoats after some years but it too varies. I see 1990's Lexus' with decent paint all the time but early 2000 Honda Civics with peeling clear. And these aren't just coincidences or odd duck cases. It's after observing trends after seeing lots and lots of the cars in parking lots and just taking note of how the paints look. Maybe it's just Honda that has never advanced in paint technology.

 

[DBMaster]

Interesting. I think the paint on my 1989 Accord held up so well because it was white. They were not using clearcoat at all on white cars at the time. I used to end up with white stuff on my application pad after waxing each section. I always rinse my application pad frequently when waxing. One would have thought the white stuff on the pad was oxidized paint, but if that were the case I would not have had shiny paint in 2012. The paint on that car was somewhat "porous" and would get dirty looking if I used the wrong wax. Nu Finish lasted a long time, but did not clean like Meguiar's. I only used clay bar on it a few times and found it to not be worth the extra effort.

But, back to the original topic. I used nothing but real chamois to dry that car. In the latter years I started using a California Water Blade first to reduce the number of times I had to wring out the chamois. The combination works very well for me. I did make forays into various synthetic chamois, but they always required more effort on the body and left streaks on the windows.

Regardless, you should use what works for you. Natural chamois have a lot of variability. The one I have now was purchased five or six years ago at Sam's. It is large and thick, but not as good as the one my dad picked up for me in Denmark in 1994. The merchant who sold it to him advised a vinegar and water soak (followed by water rinse and air dry) prior to first use. I think it removes the excess tanning oils which did seem to make the initial use better. Those of you who have been using the real thing for years will know what I am talking about.

 

[The Critic]

Originally Posted By: qwertydude

The Japanese on the other hand who also played a major role in the whole clearcoat revolution don't seem to be on the same path. They seem to still be about as hard as when they started it all in the 1980's, maybe a little harder as some newer Japanese cars definitely outlasted my parents' original 1988 Accord which came in a beautiful Metallic blue but peeled in only 8 years, it got an occasional waxing but not seriously detailed. They've made some progress as I do notice some of their cars do have clearcoats after some years but it too varies. I see 1990's Lexus' with decent paint all the time but early 2000 Honda Civics with peeling clear. And these aren't just coincidences or odd duck cases. It's after observing trends after seeing lots and lots of the cars in parking lots and just taking note of how the paints look. Maybe it's just Honda that has never advanced in paint technology.

I agree.

Perhaps there's a more technically accurate terminology available to describe what I am observing, but certain clear coats are very easy to marr or inflict defects into. Most of the German vehicles with the PPG ceramiclear paint systems are very hard and require more aggressive products to correct. On the flip-side, they are much less prone to defects from routine washes. BMW's Jet Black seems to be the exception though.

Regardless of paint, it is important to practice good washing and drying techniques. Unfortunately, using a chamois for drying is not a good practice.

 

[Pablo]

Originally Posted By: The Critic
Unfortunately, using a chamois for drying is not a good practice.


Why not?

Technical details please.

Originally Posted By: The Critic
I don't know of any high-end detailers who use a chamois.


Really doesn't mean much. Probably just not easy for them.

 

[09328ix]

Your kidding right technical details. My god we are talking about a chamois here. I do not think there is much on the molecular structure or inherent properties of a piece of cowhide. Critic is trying to tell you what the majority of us and any detailer who knows what Menzerna is would recommend. I can assure you it would not be to dry your car with a piece of beef jerky. But it is your car use what you like. As you stated "Really doesn't mean much" to me what you use. Just a thought though you could put on a pair of chaps and slide yourself all over the car that should get the job done nicely.