R134a Prices

[OilNerd]

The price of 30lbs. of R134a has more than tripled over the last few years. It used to be around $74 at my local Sam's Club, just a few years ago.

I hadn't really noticed the price increase, until someone posted a 30-lb. R134a cylinder for sale here on BITOG, and it was pointed out, by other members, how much R134a has gone up. Not wanting to hijack that member's FS thread, I thought I'd post the general R134a price increase issue for discussion here.

You would think that the Net would be on fire with news about this, but amazingly, there's not much recent news about the price increase. After a lot of digging around, it seems that a couple of factors are at play:

* A long-running shortage of trichloroethylene and perchloroethylene, gases used to make HFC's
* A shortage of fluorspar (calcium fluoride), another feedgas component
* Waning interest in producing more R134a by chemical companies, given it's bleak outlook

One R134a successor, R1234yf (HFO-1234yf), has been approved for vehicle use in the US, but there's no prohibition on the manufacture of R134a, so far anyway. I thought the European phaseout of R134a would bring more supply here, bringing the price down, not up, but it now looks like the US going to join its phaseout. (GM will be going to R1234yf in 2013 models.)

Is the R134a price situation a temporary refrigerant market anomaly that will correct itself, or just the tip of the iceberg?

I remember what happened to Freon-12 prices when it was phased out. I wonder if history is again going to repeat itself.

Please keep the discussion apolitical, so the thread doesn't get locked.
(Yes, I know that's difficult when refrigerants and regulatory issues are involved)

 

[Chris142]

The price will keep going up and up like R12 did when they began to phase it out. PB reciently had a special for their commercial customers. If you bought 3 cylinders they were $239 ea. Regular price is $299.

Theres also a new regulation I keep hearing about that limits a shop to 10 cylinders a year. Somebody is trying to limit the amount of money a shop can make.

Don't be suprised if R134a is $600 this time next year.

 

[rshaw125]

Why bother with it. I put Enviro-safe in my van 5 summers ago. Still cold (39 degrees F) much cheaper, more efficient and safer than r134A.

 

[Chris142]

Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Why bother with it. I put Enviro-safe in my van 5 summers ago. Still cold (39 degrees F) much cheaper, more efficient and safer than r134A.
Thats a hydrocarbon refrigerant!

No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.


http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html

 

[rshaw125]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: rshaw125
Why bother with it. I put Enviro-safe in my van 5 summers ago. Still cold (39 degrees F) much cheaper, more efficient and safer than r134A.
Thats a hydrocarbon refrigerant!

No. It is illegal to use hydrocarbon refrigerants like HC-12a® and DURACOOL 12a® as substitutes for CFC-12 in automobile or truck air conditioning under any circumstances.


http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html


So what? I am using it as a sub for r134A. As for the EPA they are ripe for a 75% budget cut.

 

[OilNerd]

The safety, legality, or suitability of mobile HC refrigerants would best be debated in another thread. This one is about R134a Prices. Just my

.

 

[finalyzd]

I've been wondering about this. I used to buy 30lbs tanks for 170 now its 240 on sale. Regular price is 299. If they do begin to phase it out, will that new r123whatever(have they named it yet?) Be compatible in r134systems? Or would a conversion have to be done.

 

[Chris142]

Originally Posted By: finalyzd
Be compatible in r134systems? Or would a conversion have to be done.
The pressures with the 1234 stuff is many times more than R12 or R134a so It wont be a replacement for those.

 

[OilNerd]

Originally Posted By: finalyzd
I've been wondering about this. I used to buy 30lbs tanks for 170 now its 240 on sale. Regular price is 299. If they do begin to phase it out, will that new r123whatever(have they named it yet?) Be compatible in r134systems? Or would a conversion have to be done.


$240 for 30 lbs. is better than anything I can find around here.

I believe I'm well situated for the foreseeable future, but the thought of having to deal with another refrigerant-phaseout price curve scares me. That, plus all my service equipment is geared for R134a.

 

[bluestream]

It being phased out because it a Greenhouse gas. I expect they are artificially jacking the price so that the new replacement will look that mush better. I wouldn't use the R134a anyway, as it doesn't cool very well, and you get really high head pressures.

 

[stroked93]

The replacement refrigerant is more than half R134 so it must not be that bad.

 

[morris]

i havent had a/c in years, i think i may NEVER have it again. my chrysler cars i "love" so much cant make a a/c hose that does not leak. i guess ill will my case of r12 to my grandson, seeing hows iam not allowed to sell it.

 

[Merkava_4]

So, are the conversion kits out yet?

 

[Chris142]

One of the shop magazines we get had a article about the 1234 refrigerant. They said a 30lb cylinder will be $2000.00

 

[xxch4osxx]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
It being phased out because it a Greenhouse gas. I expect they are artificially jacking the price so that the new replacement will look that mush better. I wouldn't use the R134a anyway, as it doesn't cool very well, and you get really high head pressures.
Thats why I use Duracool in my truck, far lower head pressure and better cooling, and I can buy Duracool without a license.

 

[Nick R]

Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
It being phased out because it a Greenhouse gas. I expect they are artificially jacking the price so that the new replacement will look that mush better. I wouldn't use the R134a anyway, as it doesn't cool very well, and you get really high head pressures.
Thats why I use Duracool in my truck, far lower head pressure and better cooling, and I can buy Duracool without a license.


Isn't it illegal to use a Hydro-Carbon based refrigerant as a replacement for Freon?

 

[Chris142]

Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
It being phased out because it a Greenhouse gas. I expect they are artificially jacking the price so that the new replacement will look that mush better. I wouldn't use the R134a anyway, as it doesn't cool very well, and you get really high head pressures.
Thats why I use Duracool in my truck, far lower head pressure and better cooling, and I can buy Duracool without a license.


Isn't it illegal to use a Hydro-Carbon based refrigerant as a replacement for Freon?
In the USA it is.

 

[OilNerd]

Originally Posted By: Bluestream
It being phased out because it a Greenhouse gas. I expect they are artificially jacking the price so that the new replacement will look that mush better. I wouldn't use the R134a anyway, as it doesn't cool very well, and you get really high head pressures.

I, too, thought about price manipulation, but didn't find any evidence of that. Of course, unless you can hand out subpoenas and fine people, finding such evidence can be tough.

Originally Posted By: stroked93
The replacement refrigerant is more than half R134 so it must not be that bad.

Not sure which replacement you are talking about. R1234yf (HFO-1234yf) is a single compound, like R134a, not a blend of other refrigerants.

 

[OilNerd]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
The price will keep going up and up like R12 did when they began to phase it out. PB reciently had a special for their commercial customers. If you bought 3 cylinders they were $239 ea. Regular price is $299.

Theres also a new regulation I keep hearing about that limits a shop to 10 cylinders a year. Somebody is trying to limit the amount of money a shop can make.

Don't be suprised if R134a is $600 this time next year.


I'm hoping that at some point, R134a manufacturers will seek to capitalize on high R134a prices and start producing more gas, bringing the price down. But I'm not sure how serious the shortage of R134a production components (TCE, PCE, and fluorspar) really is.

Also, uncertain is whether R134a will be phased out through attrition (people junking their old cars at normal rates), or through manufacturing/import prohibition, a la R12.

Chris, the 10 cyl. limit -- is that a California thing? Just curious, I don't run a shop.

 

[rshaw125]

Originally Posted By: Chris142
Originally Posted By: Nick R
Originally Posted By: xxch4osxx
Originally Posted By: Bluestream
It being phased out because it a Greenhouse gas. I expect they are artificially jacking the price so that the new replacement will look that mush better. I wouldn't use the R134a anyway, as it doesn't cool very well, and you get really high head pressures.
Thats why I use Duracool in my truck, far lower head pressure and better cooling, and I can buy Duracool without a license.


Isn't it illegal to use a Hydro-Carbon based refrigerant as a replacement for Freon?
In the USA it is.


NO it's not if you're working on your own car. Which is what we're talking about here. You can buy it on ebay, top up your system and it'll probably be colder than factory.