Question about Motor oil and Direct Injection.

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Jun 11, 2021
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Hey all,

Quick question about Motor oil concerning Direct injected engines. I dont know alot about motor oil, but what specifically in the oil helps reduce carbon buildup on the back of the valves. With GF6 oils becoming the standard now, GF6 claims to reduce varnish, and carbon deposits more than gf5. I see Valvoline makes a modern engine oil, and now they make the extended protection oil. Was just curious what specific additive or detergent in the oil helps with this, so that I can base my oil buying decision around an oil thats good for this.

Ive read a few things online, but Im really not finding a solution to my question.

Thank you!
 
I've been under the impression that it is more of a base oil that won't flash off under heat rather than a specific additive. If you can keep the oil from becoming vapor, you can keep it from cooking onto the backside of a valve.
 
No oil can significantly reduce the impacts of a bad design. DI being one. With DI, you get a temp mpg increase but in a long run, mpg goes down and consumer ends up paying more with other related issues (e.g. IVD). Temp mpg gain so car makers score a few points but no long term vision ...

I assume port injected + DI is better. I still prefer MPFI.
 
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No oil can significantly reduce the impacts of a bad design. DI being one. With DI, you get a temp mpg increase but in a long run, mpg goes down and consumer ends up paying more with other related issues (e.g. IVD). Temp mpg gain so car makers score a few points but no long term vision ...

I assume port injected + DI is better. I still prefer MPFI.

I believe the problem is the design as a whole and not direct injection per say. Heavy diesels run direct injection and don't have the fuel dilution and valve deposit issues despite running well over a million miles before an overhaul.
 
Didn't know that!
I'm not familiar with diesel engines. Almost bought one then decided to go with Tundra 5.7L V8 MPFI. Main thing for me was to get the mpfi before they end it like Tacoma.
 
I believe the problem is the design as a whole and not direct injection per say. Heavy diesels run direct injection and don't have the fuel dilution and valve deposit issues despite running well over a million miles before an overhaul.
Fuel was more the issue. With the introduction of ULSD, soot levels as a byproduct of combustion decreased dramatically.

Designing to emissions standards of a target region, is also an issue.

Back in my VW TDI days... EGR combined with PCV oil vapor and soot from pre-ULSD... was a big issue, the EGR body and intake manifold got clogged before it made it to the intake valves.
 
Fuel was more the issue. With the introduction of ULSD, soot levels as a byproduct of combustion decreased dramatically.

I have some questions:

1. How did diesel get into a gasoline engine?

2. Why didn't these deposits appear on diesel engine valves when diesel had massive amounts of sulphur.

3. What is the mechanism by which sulphur forms carbon deposits?

4. Did you mean ULSG?
 
I believe the problem is the design as a whole and not direct injection per say. Heavy diesels run direct injection and don't have the fuel dilution and valve deposit issues despite running well over a million miles before an overhaul.
EGR diesels most definitely get IVD's, that's one of the big benefits of eliminating EGR from a diesel, the elimination of this, which also results in much cleaner oil and better economy.
 
I believe the problem is the design as a whole and not direct injection per say. Heavy diesels run direct injection and don't have the fuel dilution and valve deposit issues despite running well over a million miles before an overhaul.
In port injected applications, deposits are prevented from building up on the back of intake valves due to the constant "washing" of the valve by the injector, and gasoline is formulated to perform this function.

With a DI engine, there is no washing of the valve, so anything present in the intake air charge can leave deposits on the back of the intake valve. Over time, these deposits build-up and can cause a reduction in performance and economy. Recall the recent thread about the DI LS engine in an Escalade that never had its intake valves cleaned, but economy was clearly reduced due to build-up and eventually it had a valve get burned from deposits, holding the valve open, and needed a new head. But this was at well over 200,000 miles.

What causes the deposits will vary depending on the design, but with a closed PCV system, one of the culprits will always be crankcase effluent, the constituents of which are gaseous combustion biproducts and volatized oil fractions, but also vapours comprised of oil droplets, moisture and whatever else that can flow. Windage trays and scrapers are employed to reduce oil vapour, and limits on Noack are employed to reduce volatile oil flash-offs, but combustion byproducts will always be present and gaseous contaminants and extremely fine vapours will not settle out in separators and ultimately make their way into the air intake stream.

Another major contributor is EGR. Exhaust is dirty, so mixing it with the air intake stream will lead to deposits. when no cleaner is present to keep it washed off.

Various mitigation mechanisms have been employed over the years. Ford used valve timing to eliminate both EGR from the intake stream (rather, using reversion to bring some exhaust back into the cylinder) and to try and expose the intake valve to a bit of the air/fuel charge, in an attempt to keep it clean. This is what was employed on the Ecoboost.

Toyota famously put hybrid/dual injection on their higher end cars, the argument at the time was that it allowed for better operation, as certain conditions are better suited for port injection, but the biproduct was of course that intake valves were kept clean.

At present, it seems that many of the marques (including Ford) are just going to with this approach (hybrid injection), which, as noted above, is argued to have benefits that extend beyond just keeping the intake valves clean.

And of course DI has issues that extend beyond just IVD's. Fuel dilution has been a huge issue, and DI soot has created wear issues. Both of which impact the long term durability of the lubricants. LSPI was another unexpected side effect.
 
EGR diesels most definitely get IVD's, that's one of the big benefits of eliminating EGR from a diesel, the elimination of this, which also results in much cleaner oil and better economy.

I wasn't talking about soot deposits on an EGR Diesel. It's kind of obvious if you intentionally apply a carbon coating to something it might get a carbon coating.

The idea with the MFI added back to DI engines is it bandaids issues. It washes the valves and allows for better fuel mixing at low rpm and allows them to avoid high pressure until the cylinders seal up.

The valve deposit issue is a relatively easy fix with VVT by varying valvetiming and possibly injector timing to allow backwash out of the cylinders to clean the valves but the issue with cold starts on short tripped cars can likely only be fixed by adding back MFI. That said certain Ring and PCV designs can definitely reduce it.
 
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I wasn't talking about soot deposits on an EGR Diesel. It's kind of obvious if you intentionally apply a carbon coating to something it might get a carbon coating.
Heavy duty diesels eventually got EGR, so the API standards had to cover it.... non-EGR diesels, since there probably wasn't enough of valve overlap between the intake and exhaust valves (if any), the soot wouldn't get a chance to coat the intake valve.
 
I believe the problem is the design as a whole and not direct injection per say. Heavy diesels run direct injection and don't have the fuel dilution and valve deposit issues despite running well over a million miles before an overhaul.

That is a good point. I wonder if it has to do with the intakes running in a vacuum at times on gas engines, or just how the PCV system is designed on them. Figure the intake side is never in a vacuum on a diesel. They still draw crankcase vapors into the the intake, but like you say, you don't hear of diesels needing the back sides of their intake valves walnut shell blasted.
 
Speaking of EGR, on my VW FSI and TSI, there is no EGR. Then how did IVD (soot) get on the intake valves?

Valve overlap, where both the intake and exhaust valves are open together to simulate an EGR to reduce NOx emissions.
 
I wasn't talking about soot deposits on an EGR Diesel. It's kind of obvious if you intentionally apply a carbon coating to something it might get a carbon coating.

The idea with the MFI added back to DI engines is it bandaids issues. It washes the valves and allows for better fuel mixing at low rpm and allows them to avoid high pressure until the cylinders seal up.
As I went into with my lengthy reply, it would seem that the addition of port injection wasn't originally designed to deal with IVD's, it was a pleasant, and unexpected, biproduct. I mentioned EGR because port injected engines had EGR long before diesels did, but tended to not suffer from issues due to the washing effect of the injection. With DI, there's nothing to do the washing, so build-up occurs, and this is regardless of whether the engine is diesel or gasoline. This is why Ford eliminated intake-based EGR and went with reversion to imitate its effects.

Combustion biproducts on a diesel are different than with gasoline. Gasoline engines also tend to run higher oil temperatures, and gasoline mixed with oil is far more volatile than diesel mixed with oil. Diesels can also run significantly more lean air/fuel ratios when not under load, reducing dilution. These combine to make the issue more prevalent on gasoline DI engines than on diesel DI engines, though as I noted, EGR was a bit of an equalizer there, as diesel EGR is vastly more dirty than gasoline EGR.
The valve deposit issue is a relatively easy fix with VVT by varying valvetiming and possibly injector timing to allow backwash out of the cylinders to clean the valves but the issue with cold starts on short tripped cars can likely only be fixed by adding back MFI. That said certain Ring and PCV designs can definitely reduce it.
Yes, I went into this as being Ford's approach also in my lengthy reply, and the Ecoboost didn't seem to be plagued with the issues that earlier DI designs had. However, Ford has also gone with hybrid/dual injection now likely because overall, the benefits outweigh the increase in complexity, even if avoiding IVD's is just a pleasant artifact of that approach.
 
Heavy duty diesels eventually got EGR, so the API standards had to cover it.... non-EGR diesels, since there probably wasn't enough of valve overlap between the intake and exhaust valves (if any), the soot wouldn't get a chance to coat the intake valve.
Not only that, but the combustion biproducts of a diesel engine are different than for gasoline, so there's less volatized that's going to go through crankcase ventilation and end up on the back of the intake valves. Same with fuel dilution, diesel + engine oil isn't the same recipe for volatile flash-off as is the case for gasoline + engine oil. Combine this with the much narrower range a gasoline A/F is confined to and you have a situation where IVD's are going to be more prevalent. EGR universally made the situation even worse, particularly for diesel engines.
 
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