Push mower better than self propelled?

[asamek]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
By the same token, I would invite anyone to mow around all the obstacles the chain link fence and constant manuevering in my yard with a self propelled. And not have to take a weed trimmer out to hit missed spots. It's a lot of man handling and fighting the self propelled drive.

My yard has a grade. I just mow along the long sides of the grade instead of up and down it.

Self propelled would work great mowing decreasing radius circles around a big hill of a yard with no onstacles but not everyone is mowing in that situation.




Hang on now! Fighting the self-propelled drive? I don't understand. Most SP mowers have a handle or lever that engages/disengages the drive. Disengage and it becomes a push mower forward and backward.

My yard has a grade on 3 sides, and I often cut across instead of up and down on the longer part, but there's no way to avoid going up and down.

And I am just saying again that there is nothing "lazy" about using a self propelled here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that NOT using one challenges logic and reason.

 

[Errtt]

Honda HRX rear wheel drive.
I wish the wheels had better traction for the slopes. I want studs for the tires.
As for the drive speed, boost it to max & I wonder, who wants to run that fast.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
My Snapper self propelled has outlasted the engine that drives it! So, I can't say self propelled is all junk.

I'll probably re-engine it and restore it. Last another 25 years.


I knew you were a good guy...

I'm running a 5.5Hp '04 Honda on a '83 Snapper that orig sported a 3.5Hp B&S... I went through the drive system, repl belts and overhauled the differential(needed nothing but new seals), virtually everything else is vintage Snapper... It'll no doubt outlast me...

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: asamek
Originally Posted By: mechanicx
By the same token, I would invite anyone to mow around all the obstacles the chain link fence and constant manuevering in my yard with a self propelled. And not have to take a weed trimmer out to hit missed spots. It's a lot of man handling and fighting the self propelled drive.

My yard has a grade. I just mow along the long sides of the grade instead of up and down it.

Self propelled would work great mowing decreasing radius circles around a big hill of a yard with no onstacles but not everyone is mowing in that situation.




Hang on now! Fighting the self-propelled drive? I don't understand. Most SP mowers have a handle or lever that engages/disengages the drive. Disengage and it becomes a push mower forward and backward.


That's just it when you run into an obstacle, you have to pull pack on the drive handle and the drive doesn't always fully and quickly disengage and the mower won't roll forward or backward. Then you have to reengage and disengage till the drive does go into neutral. At the very least you are working the drive lever back in forth constantly and the mower can't be quickly maneuvered with all the lever slack. And even when it becomes a disengaged push mower, the drive mechanism adds weight the mower tends to be heavier than a push mower since it's falsely reasoned that weight doesn't matter because it is power propelled.

Quote:
My yard has a grade on 3 sides, and I often cut across instead of up and down on the longer part, but there's no way to avoid going up and down.


My yard has slopes and I cut across the grade too. Since the slopes are asymmetrical, the up and down portion of the slopes are less steep and encountered less frequently when mowing across the slope. I don't disagree the propelled helps lower the effort when going on straightaways up slopes. My point is a really light push mower es
pecially if it had ball bearing axles is not that hard to push up slopes, and that a propelled mower takes back what it gives on straightaways and slopes in turns and around obstacles.

Quote:
I am just saying again that there is nothing "lazy" about using a self propelled here. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that NOT using one challenges logic and reason.


Lol but I'm not saying using a self propelled is being lazy, I'm saying it's just as much or more work. I've given the logic and reason for not using one.

 

[mechanicx]

But a push mower drive system will out last me with no maintenance and repair required

.

 

[asamek]

Enjoy, mechanicx. We both seem happy with what we use.

No harm intended.

 

[mechanicx]

I agree

.

I just wished they made more higher end light weight push mowers (aluminum deck ballbearing axles) and more lighter weight self propelled mowers that drive mechanism work better around obstacles.

It seems like now mostly it's cheap made push mowers, and almost as cheap made self propelled with heavy and inexpensive steel decks and clunky drive mechanisms.

The Toro super recycler for instance with an aluminum deck might be more maneuverable and light but I'd have to look into it better. I wished they still made an aluminum deck super recycler that was push and not a heavier rear bagger deck.

 

[TFB1]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
I agree

.

I just wished they made more higher end light weight push mowers (aluminum deck ballbearing axles) and more lighter weight self propelled mowers that drive mechanism work better around obstacles.

It seems like now mostly it's cheap made push mowers, and almost as cheap made self propelled with heavy and inexpensive steel decks and clunky drive mechanisms.

The Toro super recycler for instance with an aluminum deck might be more maneuverable and light but I'd have to look into it better. I wished they still made an aluminum deck super recycler that was push and not a heavier rear bagger deck.





You've obviously never used a RWD Snapper... With one lever it goes or stops, no issue pulling it backwards if necessary, just let the lever return back to neutral... Basically the drive control pivots from the edge of the handle, becoming part of the handle that your normal grip on the handle keeps engaged... Also the older models have both mower speed(drive ratio) and throttle settings, can make it go at any pace you'd like... The one I use most now has a single speed Honda engine that I thought may be a issue but it's been fine, six speeds allow any pace one would like from crawl to jog...

The REAL differential allows power to be applied even while turning, raise the front wheels and it keeps on pulling, make a U turn if you'd like... I've used nothing but Snapper since 1985 and junked, parted or traded everything else that's came my way...

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
By the same token, I would invite anyone to mow around all the obstacles the chain link fence and constant manuevering in my yard with a self propelled. And not have to take a weed trimmer out to hit missed spots. It's a lot of man handling and fighting the self propelled drive.


We've got a few trees, the flower bed edging, grill, deck, etc. and it's no big deal with the self propelled. Lift the front wheels up to turn and put them back down to go. Once I release the drive lever it stops and I can turn it immediately. Last house had a chain link fence along one side and it too was no big deal, just get close and hold that straight line.

Sure, I've got to trim the edges but I'm doing that any way so it's no big deal.

 

[mechanicx]

My self-propelled mower is RWD. It works OK around corners, but if you run into a solid obstacle the drive doesn't always disengage fully into neutral when you pull back on the drive handle.

Bottom line is it's a heavy mower and just doesn't have the nimbleness and direct response of my much lighter and nimble Honda push mower. Being lighter, it's really not that hard to push even up slopes. The self-propelled really just doesn't make it easier to mow the lawn overall. It's kind akin to maneuvering a small, sporty car around a tight course vs a pick up.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
In the past 25 years (much of it with one 1994-built mower which I still have and use in the rough/rocky/stumpy parts of the yard) I've had ZERO failures (not counting belt replacement) with the self-propulsion mechanism on any mower.


I don't know how much mowing the mower does, but belt replacements is still extra maintenance/repair that a push mower doesn't need



But its in the noise compared to total cost of ownership. In fact ANY added cost associated with the self-propulsion mechanism itself is trivial over the life of all the mowers I've had.

Prefer push mowers all you want... that's fine, and with a small enough yard or for cleaning up after a rider I've bought and used them too. But let's not claim "it costs! it breaks! it doesn't have any advantage!" as reasons against owning one is all I'm saying.

Quote:
Quote:
Given that you can put a much heavier and more powerful ENGINE on a self-propelled mower than you can on the same-size push mower, and the more engine power means it cuts heavier grass more reliably and evenly (not to mention mulches and bags better), I don't think its a fad or gimmick at all.


How do you figure that though? Pusmowers and self-propelled have or could have the same engine.


Could, and often do IF you get consumer grade sleeveless engines. An iron-sleeved commercial-grade 6-horse class (under the new rules usually billed as "7 ft-lb" engine) tends to be getting on the heavy side for a push mower, especially without the big rear wheels. They're out there, but from what I see in dealers' showrooms I'd say it is general practice that push mowers have lighter engines. [/quote]

Quote:
I just can't agree with anything you're saying here because, I just don't see any of it being the case in reality.
[/quote]

I think its just a matter of degree and preference more than any sort of "bottom line" that one is better than the other.

 

[440Magnum]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
By the same token, I would invite anyone to mow around all the obstacles the chain link fence and constant manuevering in my yard with a self propelled. And not have to take a weed trimmer out to hit missed spots. It's a lot of man handling and fighting the self propelled drive.

My yard has a grade. I just mow along the long sides of the grade instead of up and down it.

Self propelled would work great mowing decreasing radius circles around a big hill of a yard with no onstacles but not everyone is mowing in that situation.




It took some practice to get used to handling the drive engage and 3-speed levers on my old Murray, but I got to where I could operate it like a scalpel. The new Toro personal-pace is *far* easier to maneuver- and it really does for the most part feel like a light weight non-assisted mower. But it carries the weight of the 3-way bag/mulch system, heavier mulching blade, etc.

 

[itguy08]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
My self-propelled mower is RWD. It works OK around corners, but if you run into a solid obstacle the drive doesn't always disengage fully into neutral when you pull back on the drive handle.


I think that may be the key difference - all the self propelled mowers I've had have been FWD. From what I've heard they are easier to manuver than RWD.

 

[Hokiefyd]

You guys with maneuverability problems with self-propelled mowers just aren't using the right kind. The only SP mower worth owning if maneuverability is key is an older staggered-wheel Lawn-Boy. They're exceedingly light, extremely well-balanced, and you can drive them with one hand all day long. Pull up the SP bail with your thumb and it's moving. "Slip" the belt for lower speeds around obstacles. You can flip it left and right with ease because you don't have to be walking into the back of it like you have to do with a Personal-Pace type system. You can walk beside it as it mows a straight line under low tree branches for example.

Here is mine, with non-stock engine. You have to use one to understand just how light and nimble they are.

 

[danthaman1980]

The self-propelled and non self-propelled push mowers fill different market needs.

A few years ago I owned a home on 1/4 acre, with a backyard that was about 100 feet long, up a slight incline. The front yard was on a moderate incline as well... the whole thing took over an hour to mow, and I was very thankful to own a self-propelled, RWD 160cc Honda.

My current yard is very small and almost level - takes maybe 15 minutes to mow - and a much smaller, lighter, 140cc B&S 550ex does the job just fine.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: Hokiefyd
You guys with maneuverability problems with self-propelled mowers just aren't using the right kind. The only SP mower worth owning if maneuverability is key is an older staggered-wheel Lawn-Boy. They're exceedingly light, extremely well-balanced, and you can drive them with one hand all day long. Pull up the SP bail with your thumb and it's moving. "Slip" the belt for lower speeds around obstacles. You can flip it left and right with ease because you don't have to be walking into the back of it like you have to do with a Personal-Pace type system. You can walk beside it as it mows a straight line under low tree branches for example.

Here is mine, with non-stock engine. You have to use one to understand just how light and nimble they are.

It would be even lighter with a two-stroke, a magnesium deck, no self-propelled and for less effort to get it rolling ballbearings on the wheels.

Although the GCV is probably a light enough motor. I assume that is a steel deck lawn boy. When I was a youngster I used a lawnboy that looked just like that except it was push and had a 2-stroke. I didn't think it was all that light at the time, but was a skinny 11-12 year old kid then.

There are probably self-propelled mowers that maneuver obstacles better, maybe some Toros and Snappers. I still say there is a lot utility in a light, quality mower without self-propelled that is missing in the market. And also even with self-propelled weight reduction should be a goal. A lot of self-propelled mowers are heavy and cheaply made and the drive is cantankerous in tight areas.

 

[mechanicx]

Originally Posted By: danthaman1980
The self-propelled and non self-propelled push mowers fill different market needs.

A few years ago I owned a home on 1/4 acre, with a backyard that was about 100 feet long, up a slight incline. The front yard was on a moderate incline as well... the whole thing took over an hour to mow, and I was very thankful to own a self-propelled, RWD 160cc Honda.

My current yard is very small and almost level - takes maybe 15 minutes to mow - and a much smaller, lighter, 140cc B&S 550ex does the job just fine.


Definitely, but if there were more push mower of higher quality, aluminum/magnesium deck, ball bearing wheels and down around 60lbs or less there would be less need for self-propelled. Mostly you have light push mowers that are cheaply designed, and heavy self-propelled which drive leaves something to be desired in obstacles.

 

[440Magnum]

have an old staggered-discharge (not a Lawn Boy, an old steel deck with a 2.5horse Briggs slant-carb engine). Its a novelty, but awk-wierd to use! The wheel means you can't come anywhere near to a close cut on that side, which is why I really like modern rear-bagger/mulcher decks so much.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
It would be even lighter with a two-stroke, a magnesium deck, no self-propelled and for less effort to get it rolling ballbearings on the wheels.


A two-stroke would probably be lighter, but I think the magnesium decks are actually heavier. This steel deck is fairly light gauge (but high quality; no rust). This self-propelled mower, all in, only weighs about 80 pounds.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
There are probably self-propelled mowers that maneuver obstacles better, maybe some Toros and Snappers.


I haven't come across any...and for the very reason you listed below.

Originally Posted By: mechanicx
A lot of self-propelled mowers are heavy and cheaply made and the drive is cantankerous in tight areas.


This is the problem. Now that most mowers are self-propelled, most consumers couldn't care less about how much it weighs. This Lawn-Boy, at 80 pounds, is lighter than some cheap non-self-propelled mowers with much smaller engines. Most self-propelled mowers today weigh in at well over 100 pounds. Lawn-Boys have always been about light weight and maneuverability. The balance on these things is fantastic. It is absolutely no exaggeration to say that you could mow your entire yard with one hand in your pocket.

 

[Hokiefyd]

Originally Posted By: 440Magnum
The wheel means you can't come anywhere near to a close cut on that side, which is why I really like modern rear-bagger/mulcher decks so much.


This is true, but there are flip sides to that coin as well. With a conventional four-square mower, you can't trim grass in front of the mower very well (like against a fence corner or foundation wall), because the front wheels preclude cutting any closer than about 6". With a staggered-wheel deck, you can pretty much cut to within 1-2 inches of an obstacle on the front, at the expense of a closer cut on the right side of the mower.

I think the close cut on the right side is somewhat of a moot point anyway. Almost all mulchers will tend to leave a slight trail of clippings on one side of the mower or the other. This is usually documented in the owner's manual in how they recommend you mow a square section of yard. For example, my Honda tends to leave the trail on the left side of the mower, so Honda recommends that you mow counter-clockwise, so you pick those clippings up and re-mulch them on the next pass. The Lawn-Boy leaves the trail on the right side, so they recommend that you mow clockwise. So in practice, the side of the Lawn-Boy that you need the close cut on is the left side, and that side has a standard wheel profile.

I use both types (four-square and staggered-wheel), and each certainly has its own sets of pros and cons. In terms of maneuverability and light weight, though (the topic of this thread), you cannot beat a staggered-wheel Lawn-Boy if you need or want a self-propelled mower.