Probable cause for a traffic stop.

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Originally Posted By: eljefino
If you refuse to let a cop search your car, it might just end there, or he could threaten to impound it, and, of course, inventory it for impoundment/ jimmy the door to release the parking brake.


That's probably one of the better possible outcomes.

In many places, failure to follow an order, lawful or otherwise, given by the beneficent blue overlords will lead to turning up dead in police custody shortly thereafter, if not execution on the spot.
 
We need to just go ahead and get rid of the Bill or Rights, instead of simply making a mockery of it at every turn.
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
We need to just go ahead and get rid of the Bill or Rights, instead of simply making a mockery of it at every turn.

Or, stop smuggling bulk cash for the cartel. That would have prevented this situation altogether.
 
Originally Posted By: Win
You would really have to read the opinion, but it sounds out of whack with basic constitutional protections. Did they find contraband with the $607K or just $607K?.

Regardless, our civil forfeiture laws are a complete disgrace and an affront to the bill of rights. When I picked up my Xj12 in Houston, I took a one way plane ticket and cash. What are the odds of pulling that off today? About zero without a lot of hassle at a minimum, I'd say.

I know many business people that routinely carry $40-50K in their cars, the rationale being that cash talks, and when a deal presents itself, you need to be ready, willing, and able.


My uncle's boss always did that...he always had about $35k in a strong box in his Suburban. It got him some spectacular deals on trucks!

Also: at auto auctions, cash is (still) king.
 
I've read a lot about civil forfeiture; is there ANY legal recourse if you can prove in court the money is legitimate and not laundered or for illegal activity? Like the poker players mentioned above? If not, HOW THE [censored] is civil forfeiture legal??????????? You'd think someone would have appealed that to the supreme court by now.
 
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Originally Posted By: hatt
We need to just go ahead and get rid of the Bill or Rights, instead of simply making a mockery of it at every turn.

Or, stop smuggling bulk cash for the cartel. That would have prevented this situation altogether.
The "cartel?" That sounds scary.


Anyway. .gov started/empowered the cartels with the nonsense war on drugs. Just like they did with ghe mafia with booze and later the American street gangs with drugs. But now we all have to give up Rights and Freedom to "fight" it. I reject that notion. Kill it at the source of the revenue.
 
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"The Supreme Court has ruled otherwise. That court has issued a number of rulings upholding civil forfeiture, including one in 1996 that said seizure of an innocent person's property didn't violate due process. In that case, a Michigan woman named Tina Bennis fought the seizure of her car after her husband was caught having sex with a prostitute in it."

http://www.businessinsider.com/supreme-court-ruling-on-civil-forfeiture-2014-11

I wonder how many high ranking cops use the proceeds from civil forfeiture for themselves?
 
Originally Posted By: hatt
Originally Posted By: Bandito440
Originally Posted By: hatt
We need to just go ahead and get rid of the Bill or Rights, instead of simply making a mockery of it at every turn.

Or, stop smuggling bulk cash for the cartel. That would have prevented this situation altogether.
The "cartel?" That sounds scary.

Anyway. .gov started/empowered the cartels with the nonsense war on drugs. Just like they did with ghe mafia with booze and later the American street gangs with drugs. But now we all have to give up Rights and Freedom to "fight" it. I reject that notion. Kill it at the source of the revenue.

The Gulf Cartel is scary, no quotation marks needed. I'd gladly post some photos of their handiwork, but it would get me booted off here permanently.

Whether or not the drug cartels are empowered by the war on drugs, I think we can all agree that smuggling their currency is a bad thing. That's what this guy was doing; acting as a mule to smuggle their cash from an interior location to the border town of Mission, TX.

Reporting that bumper stickers were the cause of all this is sensationalist journalism. That was just one articulable fact that the police officer used to ask a few more questions, and then ask for consent to search the vehicle, which was granted.
 
Originally Posted By: Win

When I picked up my Xj12 in Houston, I took a one way plane ticket and cash. What are the odds of pulling that off today? About zero without a lot of hassle at a minimum, I'd say.



Why???

I dont know about most on here, but I havent been stopped by an officer in a while.

Im sure the TSA is able to see cash in bags, but I have my doubts that they are doing the same "enforcing", and since the title states "traffic stop", they are irrelevant. I also have taken quite a few one way flights with mixed modes of travel for various reasons... Including in and out of "target" cities like DC, NYC and LA without issue, and recently.

So I have to get this straight. Why would one arbitrarily become a target when traveling somewhere with cash? How would it be known?

One would have to go through the following:
1) Have the cash in a suspicious manner with no documentation or basis that it was indeed theirs. But since the IRS scrutinizes the carrying of cash and cash instruments over $10k, it seems that it would be prudent to have some documentation, even if the whole traffic stop thing wasnt part of the discussion.

2) Do something stupid in front of LE.

3) Get pulled over by LE.

4) Have the cash in an obvious location and/or have something else obvious and/or act so strangely that they start to have cause to wonder about you.

5) Get searched

6) Be deficient with #1 such that they can make a case of it, with you unable to make a case with the basis of communications and other plans.

etc.

I dont know about others, but when Ive been stopped, there has been no reason to ask to search my car or anything. Even the one night after midnight, in the rain when I drove home after 18 hours in the lab with no lights on, and the officer suspected DUI (though they never tested me). In regular daylight, nope, never.

So the string of events to get to the point where a search and confiscation has occurred is so abnormal in terms of routine stops that it just makes this more absurd.

So why exactly are the odds of pulling that off today so bad? If I were going to buy a private party vehicle cash, Id have no issue going tomorrow with it, knowing full well that even if I have an interaction with LE, there is no credible risk of anything escalating further.


That does not make me pro-civil forfeiture or anything like that. Its just that there is no credible threat to make this a practical issue to me beyond the appropriate reporting that is necessary regardless of policing.
 
A lot of this boils down to the quality and integrity of the
law enforcement officials, if they are honorable, and have good discernment and training those laws will be enforced with the citizens rights in mind, if not they are a disaster.
 
What if I withdraw say 5-10K from my bank account and have the receipt, on my way home from the bank I get pulled over and searched, does the receipt mean anything ?
 
When I was a kid, I was told you don't drive into Mexico because the Police are corrupt and will take your car or other possessions for their use. Who would have thought this country would do the same?
 
Originally Posted By: laserred96gt
What if I withdraw say 5-10K from my bank account and have the receipt, on my way home from the bank I get pulled over and searched, does the receipt mean anything ?

I'd be more concerned about why the police are searching your car. Are you doing something to draw attention to yourself?

In any case, if you're employed and can justify having that cash, it shouldn't be a problem. If you're transporting bulk cash for a Mexican drug cartel, you might just get it taken away.
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
When I was a kid, I was told you don't drive into Mexico because the Police are corrupt and will take your car or other possessions for their use. Who would have thought this country would do the same?

The money wasn't seized from Mr. Peña-Gonzalez because the police were corrupt. It was seized because he was smuggling bulk cash for the Gulf Cartel.
 
There are plenty of stories of the government seizing property without charging the property owner with any crimes. How do you defend denying someone due process?
 
Originally Posted By: dishdude
There are plenty of stories of the government seizing property without charging the property owner with any crimes. How do you defend denying someone due process?

Everyone who has had property seized for forfeiture is entitled to a hearing in court where they can petition to have it returned. That is due process. It may not make great sensationalist news headlines, but that's the due process.

Mr. Peña-Gonzalez is entitled to the civil forfeiture due process. He can request the hearing, although I don't imagine he'll bother trying to explain why he was transporting such a huge pile of currency since he pled guilty to the laundering charge.
 
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