Premium gasoline for GDI?

[Jimzz]

Originally Posted by BrocLuno
As the octane goes up, so do the additives. The simplest gas you can get is the cleanest burning.



No they do not and gas companies got sued for trying to make claims like that. Maybe that is where you heard it from. Notice you do not see ads saying that, at least in the US, anymore.

 

[dave1251]

Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Eddie
Interesting theory OVERKILL. Is there any data to validate the theory? Ed


As far as I know, the only data that exists is from folks on this site that have done used oil analysis with regular and premium and the premium resulted in significantly less fuel dilution.



I've seen used oil analysis with the opposite results posted another BITOG debate should happen premium vs regular. At least it's a change from thick vs thin.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by Jimzz
No they do not and gas companies got sued for trying to make claims like that. Maybe that is where you heard it from. Notice you do not see ads saying that, at least in the US, anymore.

Companies still do advertise that, including in U.S. print and TV, and the oil companies can verify the truth of the claim.

 

[OVERKILL]

Originally Posted by dave1251
Originally Posted by OVERKILL
Originally Posted by Eddie
Interesting theory OVERKILL. Is there any data to validate the theory? Ed


As far as I know, the only data that exists is from folks on this site that have done used oil analysis with regular and premium and the premium resulted in significantly less fuel dilution.



I've seen used oil analysis with the opposite results posted another BITOG debate should happen premium vs regular. At least it's a change from thick vs thin.


Agreed. This is where it would be nice if we had a poll function.

 

[Jimzz]

Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by Jimzz
No they do not and gas companies got sued for trying to make claims like that. Maybe that is where you heard it from. Notice you do not see ads saying that, at least in the US, anymore.

Companies still do advertise that, including in U.S. print and TV, and the oil companies can verify the truth of the claim.



I have not seen them since the lawsuits from many years maybe a decade+.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted by Jimzz
I have not seen them since the lawsuits from many years maybe a decade+.

Here is one from Canada:

https://www.esso.ca/en/unleaded-gasoline
Quote
Supreme Synergyâ„¢ gasoline

Octane 91

Our premium grade unleaded gasoline was formulated with a higher octane level and more cleaning agents to meet the demands of some of today's most advanced engines. Outside of Toronto and surrounding areas, Supreme is the highest-octane gasoline available at Esso and Mobil stations across Canada.

SUPREME+â„¢ Synergy Gasoline

Octane 93

SUPREME+, our highest octane gasoline, is only offered in select stations in the greater Toronto area. SUPREME+ contains more cleaning agents than our other Esso and Mobil gasoline grades, which, in turn, have higher levels of detergency than the minimum government standards.

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted by WhizkidTN
Originally Posted by Jimzz
If the manual says 87 then run 87.

If you are going to tow and/or haul a lot of weight then premium might help on some newer motors if it says will adjust for premium. Some cars will say 187hp on regular and 193hp on premium type thing.


FWIW:
I own a turbo Optima SX rated at 274HP/269ft-lb on 87 octane stock. The ECU will adjust if you run 93 octane and net about 10HP more. Many modern cars can do this now.

I run a full ECU tune with lots of bolt-on parts and must run 93 octane (Top Tier) fuel and just love the big boost in performance (~340HP/320ft-lb).



It's usually the opposite. It is tuned to run on 91 AKI, but with knock sensors, if a lower AKI is used and knock is detected, then it will pull back on timing and other parameters to prevent the knock, reducing output.

 

[Jimzz]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Originally Posted by Jimzz
I have not seen them since the lawsuits from many years maybe a decade+.

Here is one from Canada:

https://www.esso.ca/en/unleaded-gasoline
Quote
Supreme Synergyâ„¢ gasoline

Octane 91

Our premium grade unleaded gasoline was formulated with a higher octane level and more cleaning agents to meet the demands of some of today's most advanced engines. Outside of Toronto and surrounding areas, Supreme is the highest-octane gasoline available at Esso and Mobil stations across Canada.

SUPREME+â„¢ Synergy Gasoline

Octane 93

SUPREME+, our highest octane gasoline, is only offered in select stations in the greater Toronto area. SUPREME+ contains more cleaning agents than our other Esso and Mobil gasoline grades, which, in turn, have higher levels of detergency than the minimum government standards.




Yea you notice they did not say it cleans better than lower octane fuels, that is what they got sued over.
And if you read the MSDS of gas you will see premium has extra additives to get the octane higher, it just so happens those are the same solvents used in F/I cleaners that do very little. So they are not added for any cleaning ability but the octane rating. The rest is just marketing fluff they walk a very thin line on now.

 

[UG_Passat]

Esso is top tier, so it already exceeds the minimum government standards, this is true with all grades.

Just exceeding minimum government standards doesn't make it top tier. BP/Amoco exceeded minimum government standards initially, but the detergent package did not meet Top Tier standards for cleanliness performance, until they updated their detergent package to meet Top Tier standards.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by UG_Passat
Esso is top tier, so it already exceeds the minimum government standards, this is true with all grades.

Just exceeding minimum government standards doesn't make it top tier. BP/Amoco exceeded minimum government standards initially, but the detergent package did not meet Top Tier standards for cleanliness performance, until they updated their detergent package to meet Top Tier standards.

I don't believe that's exactly what happened. Not being Top Tier licensed isn't the same thing as not meeting Top Tier standards. BP was specifically recommended by BMW before they got Top Tier licensed. When BP got licensed in 2013 they claimed that their fuels always met the Top Tier requirements. They've since purged their old press releases, but there have been several versions of their statement that have been archived.

Quote
http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/48115/
Earlier this month, BP announced that it joined the automotive industry's TOP TIER program for gasoline detergency standards.

Although all three BP-branded gasoline grades treated with the company's proprietary Invigorate additive have always exceeded the TOP TIER standard for detergency, the company formally joined the program on late last month.


Costco's problem with their "Clean Power" system was that they hadn't rolled it out across all their gas stations. Top Tier licensing requires that all gas stations of that brand must have gasoline treated with additives meeting their testing requirement. They didn't change a thing other than the name (Kirkland Signature) and that all their stations were equipped with the on-site detergent dispensing system. It was literally overnight.

For the most part Top Tier is really about specifying a minimum treatment level where it will pass the cleanliness tests. I'd think the majority of EPA certified detergents could meet the Top Tier testing requirements if enough is used.

 

[oldmaninsc]

Originally Posted by Jimzz
Originally Posted by Garak
Originally Posted by Jimzz
No they do not and gas companies got sued for trying to make claims like that. Maybe that is where you heard it from. Notice you do not see ads saying that, at least in the US, anymore.

Companies still do advertise that, including in U.S. print and TV, and the oil companies can verify the truth of the claim.



I have not seen them since the lawsuits from many years maybe a decade+.

What makes Shell V-Power NiTRO+ Premium Gasoline different than other Shell grades?

Shell V-Power NiTRO+ contains the highest concentration of the Shell Nitrogen Enriched Cleaning System and cleans up faster than Shell regular. In fact, Shell V-Power contains seven times the amount of cleaning agents required by federal standards. The Shell V-Power NiTRO+ formulation was engineered with triple-action protection for optimal engine performance, delivering unsurpassed protection against gunk, unbeatable protection against corrosion, and our best protection against wear.

https://www.shell.us/motorist/shell...er-nitro-plus-premium-gasoline-faqs.html

 

[UG_Passat]

Originally Posted by y_p_w
Originally Posted by UG_Passat
Esso is top tier, so it already exceeds the minimum government standards, this is true with all grades.

Just exceeding minimum government standards doesn't make it top tier. BP/Amoco exceeded minimum government standards initially, but the detergent package did not meet Top Tier standards for cleanliness performance, until they updated their detergent package to meet Top Tier standards.

I don't believe that's exactly what happened. Not being Top Tier licensed isn't the same thing as not meeting Top Tier standards. BP was specifically recommended by BMW before they got Top Tier licensed. When BP got licensed in 2013 they claimed that their fuels always met the Top Tier requirements. They've since purged their old press releases, but there have been several versions of their statement that have been archived.

Quote
http://www.cleanmpg.com/community/index.php?threads/48115/
Earlier this month, BP announced that it joined the automotive industry's TOP TIER program for gasoline detergency standards.

Although all three BP-branded gasoline grades treated with the company's proprietary Invigorate additive have always exceeded the TOP TIER standard for detergency, the company formally joined the program on late last month.


Costco's problem with their "Clean Power" system was that they hadn't rolled it out across all their gas stations. Top Tier licensing requires that all gas stations of that brand must have gasoline treated with additives meeting their testing requirement. They didn't change a thing other than the name (Kirkland Signature) and that all their stations were equipped with the on-site detergent dispensing system. It was literally overnight.

For the most part Top Tier is really about specifying a minimum treatment level where it will pass the cleanliness tests. I'd think the majority of EPA certified detergents could meet the Top Tier testing requirements if enough is used.


In the world of detergents, there's PBA, the cheap standard detergent, that leaves its own deposits, and more isn't better. You can have more than minimum government standards, and make that claim that it exceeds government standards.

Then there is PEA, which doesn't leave its own deposits. More is more in this case. It's the performance of the detergent package that makes it meet Top Tier.

Ford recommended BP with Ingivorate also.

 

[y_p_w]

Originally Posted by UG_Passat
In the world of detergents, there's PBA, the cheap standard detergent, that leaves its own deposits, and more isn't better. You can have more than minimum government standards, and make that claim that it exceeds government standards.

Then there is PEA, which doesn't leave its own deposits. More is more in this case. It's the performance of the detergent package that makes it meet Top Tier.

Ford recommended BP with Ingivorate also.

The EPA requirement under 40 CFR 80.161 is still a performance standard for controlling fuel injector and intake valve deposits. I have heard that older detergents would clean fuel injectors but subsequently foul intake valves. But the requirement these days is to control both. Who would really be using old detergent technology when modern detergents aren't even all the expensive?

Also - not all detergent has to be PEA. If you look up what PEA is mostly used for, it's for curing epoxy. Here's a Top Tier certified detergent where the manufacturer doesn't claim use of any PEA. They also call it "scalable" which sounds like they're saying the treatment rate can vary from minimum required to meet 40 CFR 80.161 or higher to meet Top Tier requirements. The following has a laundry list of patents, of which several refer to "Mannich condensation products".

Quote
https://www.aftonchemical.com/SBU/F...rmance-Additives/Sub/Gasoline/HiTEC-6590
Application

HiTEC® 6590's patented technology was designed to meet the challenges of direct injection engine technology, while continuing to deliver excellent performance in the traditional port fuel injection platform. A fully scalable additive with EPA and TOP TIER™ certification, HiTEC® 6590 delivers powerful keep-clean and clean-up performance at cost effective treat rates.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by Jimzz
I have not seen them since the lawsuits from many years maybe a decade+.

Browse a few oil companies' web pages and FAQs and you'll see the claims.

 

[Garak]

Originally Posted by kschachn
Here is one from Canada:

Up here, Petro-Canada specifically advertises the same thing, with respect to cleaning additives. Shell does as well, but with a mention of other benefits. The second last generation of Shell advertisements (before Vettel's Trackmaster series) really pushed the cleaning power of V-Power NiTRO+.

 

[Whimsey]

My wife's 2017 Explorer with the 2.3 EB specs a minimum of 87 octane with a 91 octane preferred for towing and high temperatures. For the first 7 months we used 93 octane. This was for local and summer vacation highway driving to Key West. After 7 months we ran 87 octane for the same driving conditions and weather. Other than saving $.60/gal I only noticed a slight loss of power if you really got on it, say on the highway to pass, but not bad. My used oil analysis didn't show unusual fuel dilution using 87 octane and the wear metals were very good and lots of TBN left. This was even after 6,200 miles of winter driving involving LOTS of remote starting. Mobil 1 5w30 held up much better with viscosity shearing even in the winter than Motorcraft 5w30 did with 38% fewer miles of use in non winter temps. Of course every vehicle is different. The Ford 2.3 EB compression ratio is a modest 9.5:1.

Whimsey

 

[badtlc]

87 octane is fine. If you are anal about things running 91+ octane will eliminate the fuel dilution.

 

[badtlc]

Originally Posted by Jimzz

No they do not and gas companies got sued for trying to make claims like that. Maybe that is where you heard it from. Notice you do not see ads saying that, at least in the US, anymore.


Shell and BP in the USA actually do advertise and use higher levels of detergents in their premium grade for better cleaning than lower grades. Both have it right on their websites.

 

[240_Ed]

When I had VWs with turbo direct injection engines they ran noticeably better on high-octane (97-99 vs regular 95 RON here in the UK), the main difference being an audible change in amount of pre-ignition. Squeezing the throttle to go up a hill on 95, with the window open you could hear the knock start and feel the ECU dial back the boost before settling down - higher octane fuel eliminated this problem. I noticed this on two different engines, the 1.4 (CAXA) and 1.2 (CJZA) VW TSIs, so I'm fairly confident that there is a benefit to using premium fuel in these kinds of engines.

 

[wemay]

No difference in our 2.0T-GDi Santa Fe.