PP5W30 / 8298 miles / 07 Nissan Murano

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Sep 12, 2007
Messages
90
Location
Southeastern USA
Below is the latest UOA for my 2007 Nissan Murano with the VQ35DE 3.5L DOHC V-6 engine. I am the original owner and this is the 19th UOA performed by Blackstone Labs.
At the beginning of this cycle I installed a Wix oil filter. The air filter is also Wix that was installed at the beginning of the last oil change. My leisure travel takes me from S.C. up and down interstates along the east coast (NJ-FL) . Travels away from home amount to approx. 65% with local area travels consuming the remaining 35%.

Thanks for looking.


F12186.jpg
 
It looks good and shows a nice trending on the oil/engine. The only two things that I see are:

-- Silicon seems to be higher than the universal averages (at 102K it was 12, but higher on all other runs); any issues with your air filter system (connections, etc.)?

-- While not absolute, at 88K you had a run of 8K and your TBN was at 1.4, you ran slightly over 8K on this run and you may want to keep an eye on TBN if you have to go much past that point.

Otherwise, wear metals have been consistent save for the slight rise in lead this time.
 
Having wear metals at or below average, and having mileage accumlated at nearly double the UA basis, is simply outstanding!

I see what people are focusing on; the TBN and Si. I would contest otherwise.

The Si is a bit higher in nearly every report, but I suspect it's cumulative with miles, and therefore the reason it's higher than average is because the OCIs are typically much greater than the universal average of 4.6k miles. It's a moot point; Si is only an issue if wear metals are affected, which they CLEARLY are not!

I would agree that watching TBN is important, but not a real condemnation issue at this point. Here's why ...
TBN speaks to the lube's ability to resist and fight off acids. Given the trips he's doing, I doubt acid is building up. Further, the risk with acids is that they will attack the metals (attack the Fe casuing rust, the Cu, etc.) Since the wear metals are WAY below the UA wear rate, it's reasonable to assume little, if any, acid is being created. At some point, I would agree that low TBN is a warning, but you apparently have not found the low point that would effect wear! TBN seems to have somewhat of a parabolic curve to it's degredation, and you may not be quite to the end yet. The low TBN is not affecting wear here. Until you see wear creep up, TBN is moot.

I would creep up ever slowly to longer OCIs. Do 9k the next time; then UOA. Then perhaps 10k; check again. To get a good ROI, you need to push out the OCI. PP is perhaps 2x more expensive than a quality dino such as PYB; your OCI should be that same percentage longer to find a decent ROI.

Overall excellent UOA.
 
Originally Posted By: cp3
I completely agree with DN3. If you do the quick calculation on the Si, per mile you are actually better than the UA.

I do not disagree with either of you but:

-- since one of the UOAs had a 12 for Si, I would wonder all the others were higher (since the mileage interval is not that much more between the OPs OCIs). It seems that lower numbers are attainable and (speaking for me), I would want to know why there are differences (nearly double in between two of the UOAs).

-- for the TBN, all of the sources that I have seen here on BITOG state that 1.0 is the condemnation limit and the OP is approaching that number. DN3 states to increase the OCI conservatively and I agree with that. In the OPs engine, 1.0 of TBN was lost in 1K miles at the end of the run and although acid build-up may not be an issue yet, I would be a little concerned running the oil with little or no TBN.

Is this not the Nissan engine that has the **potential** to sludge or is that another?
 
I should probably try to clarify my TBN concept.

Condemation limits can (and should) be viewed both in a singular sense, and an "overall" sense. If you have only one characteristic that is nearing it's limit, then often pushing out a bit further is OK, as long as wear in OK. When many criteria are at/nearing condemnation levels simultaniously, then it's often a signal to OCI immediately.

I whole-heartedly agree that TBN is an issue to be tracked in longer OCIs; I don't find it too useful in short to moderate OCIs.

But WHY do we track TBN? For that matter, why do we track vis, contamination, FP and others?

The answer is WEAR. WEAR is what we are trying to avoid, or at least (more accurately) minimize.

If TBN was zero, vis was only 6.0, Si was 100ppm+, would any of that matter if the wear were this low? NOT AT ALL!

It all goes to predictors and results ...

TBN readings are a prediction of the remaining ability of the anti-acids to combat corrosion; that's all. If there is no acid present, then there is little concern for TBN level. Now, I would certainly agree conceptually that the reason TBN is low, is probably because it's being consumed in it's environment. But TBN is really a statement of the combined efforts of multiple additives, not the least of which are Ca and Mg. Those are multi-task additives, as they not only address corrosion, but also wear and detergency. It is entirely possible that the normal use process of the OCI is depleting the TBN contributors, but NOT because of acid build up.

Hence, just because TBN count is low, you're still not seeing corrosion taking place. The concept to grab onto here is that TBN can be depleted even though little acid is present.

Time for one of my conceptual analogies:
If you keep a case of beer in the fridge, in expectation that friends might come over, you would be prepared. As you start to consume the beer yourself, that does not automatically trigger your friends to show up if the beer count gets low, does it? Your consumption of the beer does not guarantee the other event will happen. And so goes the TBN; other "normal" things might be happening to the Ca, Mg, etc that are consuming the TBN rating, but that does NOT mean acid is eating away. What it means is that your protection is lower, should the acid show up. But you'll know that if you see an abnormal spike in wear metals ...

Everything we add into a lube has one goal; reduce wear.

With wear this low in this UOA, there is no reason to panic over a low TBN count. (I would certainly agree it's no reason to celebrate a low TBN, but it's not a cause to dump due to this one sole point of contention).

Push out the OCI carefully, slowly. You might find that the wear stays low as the TBN continues to degrade. If the TBN is the ONLY characteristic that is at/near condemnation, then it's safe to use the wear metals as a true indicator of OCI contemplation.

Perhaps that better explains my logic for TBN tracking?

As for the Si, it certainly could be dirt ingestion. As it seems to vary more than the mileage, by percentage, I'd look for intake leaks. My point still remains, though; it's not affecting wear, so while reducing it would be good, it's not detrimental as evidenced by the wear rates.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: 2010_FX4


Is this not the Nissan engine that has the **potential** to sludge or is that another?


It has a VQ, they do not have a history of sludge issues. You would have to do something REALLY REALLY drastic to sludge the VQ. Now there are some applications of this engine in the VQ35HR/VQ37HR " High Rev" in performance coupes and sedans which DO have a tendency of shearing oil. The tune used in Murano is a very conservative tune, with priority towards torque ( obviously ) , never really revs that high unless ur thrashing it. Oil doesnt get beat up that way....
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
But WHY do we track TBN? For that matter, why do we track vis, contamination, FP and others? The answer is WEAR. WEAR is what we are trying to avoid, or at least (more accurately) minimize.

Dave, I am with you on this (and the Si) and of course I am still a novice when it comes to overall scientology of oil, but is there not a bit more to this than just wear? A low TBN also begins to contribute to varnish and sludge build up does it not? Correct me if I am wrong, but when the TBN drops below 1.0 then additives are no longer holding contaminants in suspension, right?

Just attempting to increase my understanding...
 
I guess I just don't understand the concept of 19 UOA's (@ who knows what $ each) on a 5 year-old, 125K+ vehicle that repeatedly and over a long interval demonstrates normal wear, numbers, etc. with a normal OCI of 7-8K...

What is it you are looking for? Has your performance or gas mileage deteriorated significantly? What are your expectations as to the significance of repeated testing of your used oil? Do you feel this is going to make the car somehow last longer?

I'm not trying to be critical: I'm just not understanding what additional information you are going to gain after about the third oil analysis with no apparent problems?

You know that 5W-30 for 7-8K works. What is it that you need to be informed of and what difference is it going to make in the forseeable future? I hope you don't think it is going to increase the "value" of the car, either for sales or trade (or insurance) purposes, because it really doesn't.

Per Blackstone (and they must just LOVE you!) you are getting results (and have been getting results for a long, long time) that are better than the "universal averages" with an OCI that is 75% longer than the miles upon which they base their averages.

What additional quarterly reassurances do you need?

Cheers!

p.s. I'm serious about not being critical: it is your vehicle and you can spend whatever you want on it, but...

What are you looking for in the next oil analysis?
 
Absolutely can also be a contributor to watch, yes.

The main components to TBN are the phosphorus, magnesium, calcium and boron. Probably are other minors but those are the majors. Of those, the Ca and Mg are also what help with detergency and dispersion significantly. That does not mean that an engine will immediately sludge up with a low TBN any more than it would be attacked acidically. The presence of something has to initiate the onset. TBN is low, but no acid present? Probably not a bid deal immediately. TBN is low and engine not known to be a sludger? Again - not a big deal in the short term. Engines typically sludge moreso due to a poor design characteristic when combined with really negligent maintenance. Excellent engine designs can tolerate some abuse well; sludgers can stay in good shape with anal-retentive practices. It typically takes BOTH to start mass sludge events. (That, or a big coolant leak to congeal the oil ... but that's a whole other topic).

If you had a low TBN count, and you did a lot of short trips where temps are cyclical year round, in a high moisture environment, and you were driving a known sludger (perhaps one of the infamous Toyotas) then I'd be changing oil with TBN perhaps at 2 or 3. But if not (and the Murano engine is not known for sludging) then TBN condemnation can go much lower, and here the wear and insolubules are showing us that the issues are under control.

I would also contend this; Amsoil is one of the premium brands that really is willing to stick it's neck out, and speak to just how capable they are. Most of their products (I'm being generic here) can run up to 2x or 3x the OEM OCI and still qualify for their well written warranty coverage with no UOA needed, in a normal application. Would I believe that their TBN were somehow more capable than some other premium synthetic product? After all, they do have some proprietary stuff, but Ca is Ca (Mg is Mg, Phos is Phos ...) when it comes to a UOA, right? How can they run their products up to 3x the OCI, with no UOA, and feel comfortable to warrant the practice? I suspect they know that TBN depletion is parabolic, and that low TBN is not an automatic cause for condemnation. Generally, the virgin counts of TBN on premium products is nearly the same, give or take a percentage point. An example would be the TBN of CJ-4 lubes; they are ALL around 10-10.5, so there is no real market advantage the Amsoil would have over, say, T6 or TDT. But Amsoil will warrant their oil, with no TBN or UOA test needed, up to 3x the OEM OCI in many cases. If they start at the same place, and use the same general additives, then how is it they can practically ignore TBN for 3x the OCI? Because they know it's not a sole condemnation point, and that the low TBN will not automatically manifest in some horrid condition. I'm not picking on Amsoil here; rather, I'm praising them for being pragmatic. They are using more logic than other brands. Mobil 1 EP is another one. We've seen gasser M1EP UOAs where TBN is very low, and the mileage is not yet at the "15k mile" imposed limit. How does Mobil warrant that without a UOA? Again, they realize that low TBN is not a sole condemation point. Together, two of the leading market producers of premium syns (Amsoil and Mobil) pretty much ignore TBN for extended OCIs, and yet still warrant the results. Yes, it WILL CERTAINLY be a point of contention at some point, but I'm trying to illustrate that it's probably a lot further down the road than some people would realize.

The main point I was trying to get across is that when wear is not affected, TBN should not be an automatic condemnation assurance. You have to look at all the other variables that intertwine with the potency of the lube brew. I'm not saying TBN isn't important; it certainly is. But it's not a reason to jump ship just because one number is low.

I'm not a tribologist. There are chemists here that can eloquently speak circles around my limited knowledge of chemistry. But I DO understand the statistical analysis precepts, and I can recognize evidentiary results, and interpret them.

And, we have no idea where the TBN is at on this UOA; it could be 3 or it could be zero. In fact, unless I missed something, are we PRESUMING all the previous runs were PP? Is this a solid series of consistent inputs, or a mish-mash of several different lubes? I don't know.

What I do know is that, regardless of what the TBN is, we see low wear rates, low total wear counts, very reasonable soot/insolubles, and controlled vis in an engine not known to be a sludger. Why not push this combination out a little bit further each time until you start to see a shift in one of the resultant wear factors?
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: dnewton3
What I do know is that, regardless of what the TBN is, we see low wear rates, low total wear counts, very reasonable soot/insolubles, and controlled vis in an engine not known to be a sludger. Why not push this combination out a little bit further each time until you start to see a shift in one of the resultant wear factors?

This adds to my overall understanding and I appreciate the candor and time it took to respond. Thanks Dave!
11.gif


PS...thanks OP for posting the information; I can relate to the collection of data for long term analysis and can appreciate the cost of such an endeavour. More information is always better...
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

What I do know is that, regardless of what the TBN is, we see low wear rates, low total wear counts, very reasonable soot/insolubles, and controlled vis in an engine not known to be a sludger. Why not push this combination out a little bit further each time until you start to see a shift in one of the resultant wear factors?


So, what is the additional value of repeated testing (at what cost?) to increase incrementally what is already shown to be a very successful regimen? One potential less oil change every two years?

I still don't understand...

Cheers!

p.s. Nice post, dnewton 3!
 
I cannot speak for the OP, but I can hazard a guess.

The quest for knowledge often comes in many forms, for many reasons.

Why do some people run synthetics and OCI every 5k miles, when evidence overwhelmingly shows it's wasteful? Because they want to.

Why does the OP continue to do UOAs when his extablished practice clearly shows he's safe? Because he wants to.

Wants are different from needs.

I, for one, appreciate these type of consistent UOAs. The data developed, especailly with high annual milage, helps show trends that would otherwise escape us all together, or take years to emerge.

I will say this, however, about this UOA. I suspect that any decent quality dino oil could do as well, or nearly as well, for far less cost. While I appreciate the consistent approach, I abhor the waste. IIRC, the OEM OCI is 7.5k miles for this engine/vehicle. That is OP is doing those, and spending at least 2x the money on the OCI, plus the additional cost of the UOAs, is VERY wasteful. The ONLY benefit we can get is knowledge. There is NO benefit to the engine to run syn's at/near OEM OCI limits, and then dump money into consequtive UOAs. What he gains (what we all gain) is data and information.

What this UOA tells me is that he should push out his OCI methodically to meet the ROI. The engine is in great shape, but it likely would still be that way even if he ran dino lubes, given these current OCI durations.
 
Originally Posted By: bourne
It has a VQ, they do not have a history of sludge issues.

Thanks for the clarification--I could not remember about this particular engine.
 
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Why does the OP continue to do UOAs when his extablished practice clearly shows he's safe? Because he wants to.

Wants are different from needs.


Quoted for emphasis. These words really need to be tattooed onto some people's foreheads.

Trending UOA's such as these are very valuable, much more so than any "one off" analysis. Thank you OP for posting (never mind the nattering nannies). Anyone who is offended by someone elses UOA's really needs to stay out of the UOA section.
 
Originally Posted By: Samilcar
Originally Posted By: dnewton3

Why does the OP continue to do UOAs when his extablished practice clearly shows he's safe? Because he wants to.

Wants are different from needs.


Quoted for emphasis. These words really need to be tattooed onto some people's foreheads.

Trending UOA's such as these are very valuable, much more so than any "one off" analysis. Thank you OP for posting (never mind the nattering nannies). Anyone who is offended by someone elses UOA's really needs to stay out of the UOA section.


I'm not "offended by someone else's UOA's": I merely asked a question as to the OP's perceived benefit.

You can get your heating & a/c system "checked" twice a year.

Flush the power steering, the cooling system, the tranny on a yearly basis.

There are shops that will refresh the halogen in the headlamps, as well...

My nattering nanny questions were simply "Why?" & "What is the perceived benefit?"
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top