Polymeric Graphene, a revolution battery ?

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Pardon my obvious bias, but the Chevy Bolt stands a better chance of being the breakthrough electric car than the Tesla Model 3. Tesla is taking deposits on the car now, for delivery in late 2017. That sound like desperation a la Tucker.

Tesla didn't have any new car on any lot for sale, all their Model S and X are on order only.

Some early model X owners deposited some money couple years ago, if you order and deposit some money for model X now you will not get yours for 5-6 months or longer.

With some deposits, Tesla has a free use of those money for a while without paying any interest. They are not desperate, they just like free interest money to run their business.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Nate1979
Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: Cujet
Electrochemical energy storage has finite, theoretical and real limits. The storage capacity they claim is well within today's battery technology. Zinc/air batteries for example, can achieve this energy density.

However, so far, the high energy density batteries seem limited to a few charge cycles.

Also, keep in mind that battery banks with high energy density still need to conduct all that power/current. Most also need liquid cooling. This leads to a network of heavy wires/conductors/connectors, in a robust, liquid filled case. This alone results in a heavy battery. We still do not have super-conducting wire for this use.

This is why individual high tech batteries spec out with excellent specific energy. Yet, when assembled into a battery pack, the energy density is rather poor. The Chevy Volt's individual cells are capable of 248Wh/kg. However, once assembled, connected and cooled, and managed for long life, the number drops to 88Wh/kg. Sad, but true.


88 W*hr/kg = .32 MJ/kg

Gasoline has an energy storage density of 43 MJ/kg; 136 times that of a real-world-state-of-the-art-actually-in-production Li ion battery. This is why electric cars remain a pipe dream. Even when one considers that an electric car will go 2.5 times as far for a given amount of stored energy as a gasoline car, that still means the gasoline car will have 54 times the range per pound of energy storage system.


I think you are not comparing similar things. The weight of the energy for electric cars is the "electricity". The weight of the energy for gas cars is the gasoline. This is what is consumed in the driving.

The batteries in an electric car are the energy storage device, no different than the gas tank. So, a better comparison would be driveline weight of each (meaning batteries, motors, etc).


I am describing what it takes to build a useful automobile and comparing the weight of the energy storage systems. The weight of the electrons stored in a battery is negligible, but the weight of the container isn't. The 16.8 gallons of gasoline in my Camaro weigh about 105 pounds, and the tank weighs about 20, and that 125 pounds of energy storage system gives the car 300 miles of range in daily commuter traffic. The engine in the Camaro weighs 400 pounds, the trans 110, the driveshaft 10, the rear diff 150, for a total propulsion system weight of ~795 pounds. The Bolt has a 960 pound battery pack that gives it 200 miles of range. Basically, the battery pack of the Bolt weighs more than the entire propulsion system of my Camaro, and gives it 33% less range.

If every car in the world was electric, the inventor of the gasoline car would be praised as a miracle worker.

 

[kschachn]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
If every car in the world was electric, the inventor of the gasoline car would be praised as a miracle worker.


Great point, I'm going to steal it.

I used to work for one of the largest battery manufacturers in the world. Even when discussing the most futuristic batteries coming out of our research department, it was always a sobering experience to compare the relative energy density with gasoline.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
The Bolt has a 960 pound battery pack that gives it 200 miles of range. Basically, the battery pack of the Bolt weighs more than the entire propulsion system of my Camaro, and gives it 33% less range.

People was dreaming about EV for a long time, but the main problem with an EV is battery. The best current battery is so heavy and expensive too. I think battery may be better in the next 10-20 years, it needs to be half the current size with twice the energy/power to be able to compete with ICE.

 

[john_pifer]

One thing's for sure - it will be fascinating to see the development of battery and motor efficiency in the years to come.

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: john_pifer
One thing's for sure - it will be fascinating to see the development of battery and motor efficiency in the years to come.


Motor efficiency has always been there; about 90% or so.
It's the battery breakthrough that is always 10 years away.

 

[Cujet]

Let's look at a previous electric car, the 1996, GM EV-1.

It's 70-90 mile range, 8 second 0-60 and it's electronically limited top speed of 80 is stunningly similar to today's Nissan Leaf.

Bottom line: We have accomplished little to nothing with regard to range, performance and utility in the "lower end consumer market".

The Tesla Model S is stunningly different. It uses a 1500 pound battery integrated into the floor. The motor(s) are ultra powerful and the car is well engineered. $100,000 purchases a lot of battery and motor and the associated excellent performance.

FYI, 1500 pounds of battery equals 60 pounds of gasoline in real world range.

 

[Nate1979]

I'm not a big proponent of electric cars but if the Bolt delivers what GM says it will deliver (>200mile range) at MSRP $37k (a little expensive) it will be interesting to many people.

Also, if you look at the Chevy Volt, it has a 53 mile electric only range and 108 MPGe, with a 420 mile range.

Personally I think the hybrids like the Volt are a better long term solution than all electric.

The Leaf has, what a 107mile range now?

 

[Vuflanovsky]

How much will an EV that's a mass market-supplied success from GM or others effect a continuing boutique brand like Tesla going forward?? Personally, I'd look less at the advances over x period of time and compare how the soon to be available product in competition with Tesla's larger models matches up. Will that success cause Tesla to be a battery and power technology supplier and get out of the auto manufacturing game or does their boutique quality continue with their less expensive models??

Tesla has been on the brink a couple times and if reasonably competitive EVs with 150-200 mile ranges ( for people who'd prefer to own a Corolla or a Cruze vs. a Model S ) aren't that far away, that might be the biggest blow yet that has the potential to change their business model.

I tend to agree with those that say that competitive EVs will become available when the desire and technology intersect. That intersection seems to be a lot closer today than it was 10-15 years ago, including and in spite of Tesla.

 

[HTSS_TR]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Let's look at a previous electric car, the 1996, GM EV-1.

It's 70-90 mile range, 8 second 0-60 and it's electronically limited top speed of 80 is stunningly similar to today's Nissan Leaf.

Bottom line: We have accomplished little to nothing with regard to range, performance and utility in the "lower end consumer market".

The Tesla Model S is stunningly different. It uses a 1500 pound battery integrated into the floor. The motor(s) are ultra powerful and the car is well engineered. $100,000 purchases a lot of battery and motor and the associated excellent performance.

FYI, 1500 pounds of battery equals 60 pounds of gasoline in real world range.

Comparing only range and performance then GM EV-1 is very similar to Nissan Leaf. But, if weight and battery technology and cost are take into account, then Leaf is better than EV-1.

I don't know what type of battery was used in EV-1 but I am sure it wasn't Li-on, as of now most pure EV's use Li-on battery.

GM made few EV-1's for lease to test market, but they thought they could not produce EV-1 at reasonable cost that why they abandoned it. Only after Tesla showed that EV can be done and there are buyers for it, GM jumps back into EV.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
Originally Posted By: john_pifer
One thing's for sure - it will be fascinating to see the development of battery and motor efficiency in the years to come.


Motor efficiency has always been there; about 90% or so.
It's the battery breakthrough that is always 10 years away.


That was my understanding on the motors too...

 

[SteveSRT8]

3/4 ton of just battery. Forget ever having a lightweight responsive auto at a reasonable price with those numbers.

Every few years another breakthrough comes along seeking funding...

 

[spackard]

Just one observation: several EV enthusiasts were talking Monday, as one of them couldn't refill because a Tesla was parked in the charging place, this guy couldn't get home on the charge he had, and that incident got the topic rolling.

One of them mentioned what you really need to do is purchase an EV, then buy a small generator and carry that around in your trunk and break it out for a topping-off charge.

I don't know about this - seems a 3KW generator is minimum size for "topping-off" to me, which isn't a light generator. Probably a 150 cc engine, over a hundred pounds to lift out of and in the trunk, and there's the gas fumes from the not-completely-sealed fuel system. Then the thing would probably go walkies here within a year.

It didn't sound like the other enthusiasts were bringing up the limitations of a genset, and these are otherwise bright people.

 

[Cujet]

Originally Posted By: spackard
Just one observation: several EV enthusiasts were talking Monday, as one of them couldn't refill because a Tesla was parked in the charging place, this guy couldn't get home on the charge he had, and that incident got the topic rolling.

One of them mentioned what you really need to do is purchase an EV, then buy a small generator and carry that around in your trunk and break it out for a topping-off charge.

I don't know about this - seems a 3KW generator is minimum size for "topping-off" to me, which isn't a light generator. Probably a 150 cc engine, over a hundred pounds to lift out of and in the trunk, and there's the gas fumes from the not-completely-sealed fuel system. Then the thing would probably go walkies here within a year.

It didn't sound like the other enthusiasts were bringing up the limitations of a genset, and these are otherwise bright people.



Like this, hidden away in some non visible location, charging your electric car with GASOLINE.....

 

[A_Harman]

Originally Posted By: Cujet
Originally Posted By: spackard
Just one observation: several EV enthusiasts were talking Monday, as one of them couldn't refill because a Tesla was parked in the charging place, this guy couldn't get home on the charge he had, and that incident got the topic rolling.

One of them mentioned what you really need to do is purchase an EV, then buy a small generator and carry that around in your trunk and break it out for a topping-off charge.

I don't know about this - seems a 3KW generator is minimum size for "topping-off" to me, which isn't a light generator. Probably a 150 cc engine, over a hundred pounds to lift out of and in the trunk, and there's the gas fumes from the not-completely-sealed fuel system. Then the thing would probably go walkies here within a year.

It didn't sound like the other enthusiasts were bringing up the limitations of a genset, and these are otherwise bright people.



Like this, hidden away in some non visible location, charging your electric car with GASOLINE.....

That doesn't count with electric car advocates.
Because they don't want it to. You would never be able to convince the guy that's doing that, that his car is really powered by gasoline.

 

[Shannow]

Originally Posted By: A_Harman
That doesn't count with electric car advocates.
Because they don't want it to. You would never be able to convince the guy that's doing that, that his car is really powered by gasoline.


Wondering how this mob feel about it ....

http://www.aeva.asn.au/tasmania

Their cars for the last year have been running on a fairly large mix of 20% efficient brown coal...and since the interconnector broke before Christmas.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb......#Post3984849

diesel.