Phosphorous coating on differentials

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I have recently read several publications regarding differential break in and all recommend changing gear oil out at 500 miles to remove metal debris and any phosphorous that the gears are coated with during manufacture. I wonder if this coating would cause high TAN readings in some diff used oil analysis? Most concluded that a differential is broken in at 500 miles.

Any comments?
 
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I'm not chemist enough to know whether the coatings you mention would cause a high TAN, but the assembly and break-in contaminants alone warrant a change of oil. 500 miles is the minimum time but I would gauge that by the shop and the reason it originally failed. If the axle failed catastrophically, there will be a lot of metal in the housing and spraying it out with brake cleaner (a typical method at an average shop) isn't likely to get it all. If the shop pulled the housing and hot-tanked it, or pressure washed it out, maybe, but my experience is that break in is still occurring well after 500 miles, as evidenced by the magnetic devices I've observed. No studies I know of, but the new diff in my own truck quit "fuzzing" the magnet after about 10K (one diff change done earlier)

I spent time at an axle-only repair shop that had a big pressure washing tank into which you could put whole axle housings. Hot water, chemicals, hours of cleaning and still sometimes you could find metal paste gooped into corners. Lots of stuff gets tossed up into the axle tubes as well. If you turn a broomstick into a giant "bore brush" you would be amazed and revolted by what comes out of an axle tube after many years in operation and a major parts failure.

Based on my own observation alone, no scientific studies, if the unit failed catastrophically, and it didn't get a super-duper housing cleaning, I would change it at 500 and again at 2500-5000 miles.
 
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If you turn a broomstick into a giant "bore brush" you would be amazed and revolted by what comes out of an axle tube after many years in operation and a major parts failure.


The area guru (my pal!) "swabs the gun barrel" first brake clean followed by a light lubricant and shop towels until they come out clean.
 
No failure but I usually change the FF gear oil at 1-3000 miles and was wondering of the coating is still coming off after the one change and causing the new gear oil to be acidic. Wondering if I should change it again.
 
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Originally Posted By: Kestas
Metal debris - yes, but why would you want to remove the phosphorous?


According to the articles I read the phosphorous coating comes off during break in and all of them indicated you wanted that out of the gear lube.
 
Yes, it comes off and gets swept away with the fluid change. But otherwise I expect that it is beneficial in the oil, unless someone finds a good reason not to have it in the oil. It is a solid lubricant.
 
Why assume it's phosphorous?
It could be ammonia nitride or a bunch of other heat treating methods.
Anyway, I don't think it is some additive that sloughs off so easily.
 
Originally Posted By: mechtech2
Why assume it's phosphorous?


Because I have seen it mentioned in about 4 or 5 articles on diff break in. All of them mention it as one of the two important reasons to change the oil at 500 miles. (debris is the other)
 
Hmm....

I thought the phosphorous was supposed to be in there, so it could form a sacrificial layer on top of the steel gears.
 
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According to the articles I read the phosphorous coating comes off during break in and all of them indicated you wanted that out of the gear lube.


I would like to see those articles.

Phosphorous compounds are part of the EP package for gear lubes. You want to change the fluid after run-in to get the machining particles out of there so they don't interfere with gear meshing and bearing operation. Magnetic drain/fill plugs will go a long way to removing iron and other magnetically attracted particles.
 
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From West Coast Differentials:

Gear Oil, Additive and Break-In
Use a gasket or 100% silicone to seal the cover or third member to the housing. Use only high quality name brand gear oil and fill the differential until the oil spills out the plug hole. Positraction carriers require anti-friction additive.

All new gear sets require a break-in period to prevent damage from overheating. After driving the first 15 or 20 miles you must let the differential cool for 30-40 minutes before proceeding. Drive 500 easy miles before towing. Tow for very short distances (less than 15 miles) and let the differential cool before continuing during the first 45 towing miles. Change the gear oil after the first 500 miles. This will remove any metal particles or phosphorus coating that has come from the new gear set.
 
NEW GEAR BREAK-IN: All new gear sets require a break-in period to prevent damage from overheating. After driving the first 15-20 miles it is best to stop for 45 minutes or more and let the differential cool before proceeding. Gear Ones warranty requires that the vehicle be driven at least 500 miles before towing or heavy acceleration. Gear One recommends towing for very short distances (less than 15 miles) and letting the differential cool before continuing during the first 45 towing miles. Differential oil should be changed after the first 500 miles. This will remove any metal particles or phosphorus coating that has come from the new gear set.
 
From Imagineering Metal Finishing:

Manganese Phosphating
Manganese phosphating is a process used to produce a crystalline, oil absorptive coating with excellent wear resistance. These coatings are applied to facilitate initial break in of new parts such as piston rings, camshafts, cylinder liners, differential gears and transmission gears. The etch pattern produced by manganese phosphate on the surface of parts greatly improves oil retention and prevents galling of contact surfaces.


So, my guess is that what the other diff builders are refferring to would be phosphorous that sheds off the gear surface and becomes debris.
 
The question is "what OE or aftermarket manufacturer" uses or doesn't use any special coatings?
 
The gold standard was always 10,000 miles for diff's and transmissions that are new. This was based on how long it took for break in wear and wear particle size to drop down.This research was down in the 1960 and 1970's but other then Toyota all the Domestics are making their Ring and Pinons the same way they have for ever. They do not lap them much either. If you change the oil too soon it is a waste because the new oil becomes highly contaminated.

Now if we where talking about engines then sure 500 is a good time.
 
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So, my guess is that what the other diff builders are refferring to would be phosphorous that sheds off the gear surface and becomes debris.


From the webite below, the language implies that it's not going to hurt anything and that's it's mainly for break-in to protect surfaces.

http://parkerhq.com/manganese_phosphate.htm

Run the vehicle 500 miles and then change the oil to get rid of any factory dust, machining debris, and any initial wear particles.

After that, the EP adds take over anyway.

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...the new S-P add packages are esterified S-P's. These only react under pressure/heat of shearing and loads to form FeP and FeS EP surfaces films to prevent galling and wear. TBN boosters (TAN reducers), antioxidants, metal deactivators, and rust inhibitors are also incorporated to prevent acid buildup and to protect from rust.


https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/gear-tribology-and-lubrication-part-ii.57858/
 
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