Pension...defaults

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Originally Posted by Wolf359
I think you didn't get my realist tone vs your idealist views. I didn't say it was good that there was mismanagement, just that your call for the guillotine probably won't happen as it doesn't normally happen in these types of cases. Not that it wouldn't be good to have the guillotine in use. That's the difference between a realist and an idealist.
I am hardly an idealist and you are certainly no realist. I didn't call for a guillotine, I called for an investigation leading to prosecution where applicable. That's called a reasoned response.
 
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Originally Posted by ABN_CBT_ENGR
Originally Posted by Wolf359
I think you didn't get my realist tone vs your idealist views. I didn't say it was good that there was mismanagement, just that your call for the guillotine probably won't happen as it doesn't normally happen in these types of cases. Not that it wouldn't be good to have the guillotine in use. That's the difference between a realist and an idealist.
I am hardly an idealist and you are certainly no realist. I didn't call for a guillotine, I called for an investigation leading to prosecution where applicable. That's called a reasoned response.
I'm telling you what will happen and you're calling for investigations that probably won't happen. Good luck with that. Have fun storming the castle. I'm not with you.
 
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Originally Posted by Wolf359
I'm telling you what will happen and you're calling for investigations that probably won't happen. Good luck with that.
Lots of people seem to be getting awful nervous for things that probably wont happen :Luck" has nothing to do with it- wait till they start defaulting
 
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Remember the parable of the tortoise and the hare? The tortoise is supposed to get his at the end. Civil servants accept lower base salaries to get the guaranteed benefits. If the government side of the negotiation is weak, elect better leaders. Don't blame some 85-year old guy for (literally) living up to his end of the bargain. And, yes, pension surplusses are used to hide budget deficits caused by taxes being too low for the services demanded. If we taxed appropriately for what is demanded this wouldn't be an issue.
 
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Define the "rich" taxpayers. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cn...could-top-5-trillion-in-next-decade.html

Screenshot_2020-05-17-16-03-03-065.jpg
 
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It is an inevitable fact that public employee pensions in at least a half dozen of the most mismanaged and corrupt states will default. Period. Any bailouts will be small compared to the size of the default. Politicians from non-defaulting states know their constituents won't stand for a massive Federal bailout. Instead the states will be allowed to declare some form of bankruptcy. It's ironic that those states which will default (Alaska, Illinois, California, Connecticut, etc) have been run for decades by politicians who are entirely under the thumb of public employee unions. What was promised was based on lies and stupid assumptions about investment returns and were never possible to pay for... and everyone involved at the government and union rep level knew it for decades. You can't have a cushy welfare state AND a wealthy bureaucrat class. The laws of economics can't be thwarted.
 
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Originally Posted by ripcord
It's ironic that those states which will default (Alaska, Illinois, California, Connecticut, etc)
Question for you: Where did you get this list? Thanks in advance...
 
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This is expected. The whole point of inflation is to inflate your way out of debt, and that's not just government debt either. Pension is a borrowing from the future scheme in the market economy, and you won't have a solution to it as long as the live expectancy is increasing and birth rate is decreasing. Actually any kind of retirement plan would have this problem one way or another (just who is to blame instead). 401k and IRA could also drastically reduce in value when you need it the most, and the decrease may not recover to what you need when you are still alive but need to withdraw to live on.
 
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Originally Posted by eljefino
Remember the parable of the tortoise and the hare? The tortoise is supposed to get his at the end. Civil servants accept lower base salaries to get the guaranteed benefits. If the government side of the negotiation is weak, elect better leaders. Don't blame some 85-year old guy for (literally) living up to his end of the bargain. And, yes, pension surplusses are used to hide budget deficits caused by taxes being too low for the services demanded. If we taxed appropriately for what is demanded this wouldn't be an issue.
It's more like the inmates running the asylum: https://accfcorpgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/CalPERS-Report-Final.pdf And there are municipalities around here that distribute the surplus's in a good year to the retired pensioners and come back the next year when the fund under performs asking for more money. Then there is the issue of the retiree making more in retirement than while they were working.
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Question for you: Where did you get this list? Thanks in advance...
They're some of the ones with the highest per-captita shortfalls in their pension systems.
 
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Originally Posted by ripcord
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Question for you: Where did you get this list? Thanks in advance...
They're some of the ones with the highest per-captita shortfalls in their pension systems.
Where did you get the list? I know CA has the highest dollar amount of unfunded state pensions. This is to be expected given that CA has the most people, about 12% of the country's population. As a percentage of payout, CA is slightly better than half the states. CA also has a lower percentage of state vs private workers than most of the country. You know CA, by itself, is the 5th largest economy in the world; it has considerable economic might. KY, on the other hand, has the worst percentage of funded state pensions. Since my understanding, for CA anyways, does not agree with your understanding, I would like to review your data for my own understanding.
 
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Originally Posted by Sunnyinhollister
It's more like the inmates running the asylum: https://accfcorpgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/CalPERS-Report-Final.pdf And there are municipalities around here that distribute the surplus's in a good year to the retired pensioners and come back the next year when the fund under performs asking for more money. Then there is the issue of the retiree making more in retirement than while they were working.
There are some "retired" firefighters in our church who work for county government and are drawing a salary AND a pension. They retired after 20 years with full pensions and then got "new" jobs working for the government while getting to keep their seniority (and thus pay scale) on top of their pensions. When they actually retire, they will be effectively receiving double pensions. I don't begrudge them their livelihood, but we shouldn't be giving retirement benefits to young people who are not of retirement age, and no public employee should ever have been promised retirement payments equaling several times the average household income.
 
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Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Originally Posted by ripcord
Originally Posted by JeffKeryk
Question for you: Where did you get this list? Thanks in advance...
They're some of the ones with the highest per-captita shortfalls in their pension systems.
Where did you get the list? I know CA has the highest dollar amount of unfunded state pensions. This is to be expected given that CA has the most people, about 12% of the country's population. As a percentage of payout, CA is slightly better than half the states. CA also has a lower percentage of state vs private workers than most of the country. You know CA, by itself, is the 5th largest economy in the world; it has considerable economic might. KY, on the other hand, has the worst percentage of funded state pensions. Since my understanding, for CA anyways, does not agree with your understanding, I would like to review your data for my own understanding.
Pension Crisis by State
 
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The same dollar has different cost of living value in CA vs Mississippi, and the amount of tax to compensate for the shortfall has different economic impact too. This is like saying a banker in debt for 2M when his income is 300k being worse in debt than a grocery store worker in debt for 1M when his income is 60k. You can see where the logic is going.
 
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Originally Posted by Sunnyinhollister
Originally Posted by eljefino
Remember the parable of the tortoise and the hare? The tortoise is supposed to get his at the end. Civil servants accept lower base salaries to get the guaranteed benefits. If the government side of the negotiation is weak, elect better leaders. Don't blame some 85-year old guy for (literally) living up to his end of the bargain. And, yes, pension surplusses are used to hide budget deficits caused by taxes being too low for the services demanded. If we taxed appropriately for what is demanded this wouldn't be an issue.
It's more like the inmates running the asylum: https://accfcorpgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/CalPERS-Report-Final.pdf And there are municipalities around here that distribute the surplus's in a good year to the retired pensioners and come back the next year when the fund under performs asking for more money. Then there is the issue of the retiree making more in retirement than while they were working.
I have a friend from high school that gets to retire when he's 48 from his city job. And he will get retiree health insurance, too.
 
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Originally Posted by PandaBear
The same dollar has different cost of living value in CA vs Mississippi, and the amount of tax to compensate for the shortfall has different economic impact too. This is like saying a banker in debt for 2M when his income is 300k being worse in debt than a grocery store worker in debt for 1M when his income is 60k. You can see where the logic is going.
It's more than that. CA has 12% of the nation's population. One would expect the total dollar value to be high. CA state pensions, in many cases, are ridiculously high. Unless you are the one getting the pension, I guess.
 
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Originally Posted by ripcord
Originally Posted by Sunnyinhollister
It's more like the inmates running the asylum: https://accfcorpgov.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/CalPERS-Report-Final.pdf And there are municipalities around here that distribute the surplus's in a good year to the retired pensioners and come back the next year when the fund under performs asking for more money. Then there is the issue of the retiree making more in retirement than while they were working.
There are some "retired" firefighters in our church who work for county government and are drawing a salary AND a pension. They retired after 20 years with full pensions and then got "new" jobs working for the government while getting to keep their seniority (and thus pay scale) on top of their pensions. When they actually retire, they will be effectively receiving double pensions. I don't begrudge them their livelihood, but we shouldn't be giving retirement benefits to young people who are not of retirement age, and no public employee should ever have been promised retirement payments equaling several times the average household income.
If you are retired it should be law you can't get a "new job" with the same employer so there is double pension. You want to work another job with a different employer? Then that is fine.
 
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