PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?

bruce381 · Jul 24, 2005

Ok hows this neither PAO or ESTER by themselves are the best, but blended you get all the benefits
of both. ALL quality motor oil synthetics will use a combo of ester and PAO some higher in ester some higher in PAO which is the "best" is not a simple answer, like how high it up, everone has an opinion on motor oils. I'll just say use whatever flavor you like but make sure it is
API SL or SM rated oil and you will be fine.
I perfer a SL/CF but thats another story.
bruce

416Rigby · Jul 24, 2005

For engines that sit-up for long periods of time, such as those on tractors and industrial equipment, are PAO's better than ester-based oils? What about corrosion resistance? Thanks.

bruce381 · Jul 24, 2005

Do not think much difference corrosion protection comes from sulfonate and phenates as well as ZDDP.
bruce
416 rigby must kick like **** best I can do is a 338 winchester
bruce

bruce381 · Jul 24, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by 416Rigby:
For engines that sit-up for long periods of time, such as those on tractors and industrial equipment, are PAO's better than ester-based oils? What about corrosion resistance? Thanks.

best protection would be from a MIL-21260D oil this is an additized motor oil for long term protection of mil spec vehicles if not that try a high TBN diesel oil like CI-4.
bruce

G-MAN · Jul 24, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by bruce381:
best protection would be from a MIL-21260D oil this is an additized motor oil for long term protection of mil spec vehicles

The entertainment factor around here keeps going up and up.

pmt · Jul 24, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by bruce381:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Rigby:
For engines that sit-up for long periods of time, such as those on tractors and industrial equipment, are PAO's better than ester-based oils? What about corrosion resistance? Thanks.

Click to expand...

best protection would be from a MIL-21260D oil this is an additized motor oil for long term protection of mil spec vehicles if not that try a high TBN diesel oil like CI-4.
bruce

To: bruce381 -

would it make much difference if the CI-4 oil was dino or synth? I'm thinking about using something like Delo 400 or Delvac 1300 as only a storage oil in a car that sits all winter. Put the CI-4 oil in it in November and drain it in April. I run 5W-30 synth oil in it now (including storage)and would run put fresh synth 5W-30 in it each Spring under my new maintenance plan.
Or if a synth CI-4 would do a better storage job, rather than toss $30 of oil, I could save in clean container for use in lawn mowers, etc.
Thanks.
pmt

To: B

TallPaul · Jul 24, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by bruce381:
... make sure it is
API SL or SM rated oil and you will be fine.
I perfer a SL/CF but thats another story.
bruce

I think ACEA A3 is even better than SL/CF, no? However, I think the A3 thing limits you to 10w40 and up.

AndyH · Jul 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by TallPaul:

quote:

Originally posted by bruce381:
... make sure it is
API SL or SM rated oil and you will be fine.
I perfer a SL/CF but thats another story.
bruce

Click to expand...

I think ACEA A3 is even better than SL/CF, no? However, I think the A3 thing limits you to 10w40 and up.

There are some 30-weight A3-rated oils, German Castrol Syntec 0w-30 comes to mind as well as the 10w-30 (or is it the 5w-30?) Supertec Synthetic (from Wal-Mart). I think Valvoline MaxLife Synthetic 5w-30 & 10w-30 are as well.

bruce381 · Jul 25, 2005

For storage dino or syn no difference if you are going to drain it before use why pay a syn price? the rust protection is from the DI package having the oil "stick" to upper engine parts is the problem so I'd use a Mil 212060-D (hard to find) spec oil as I said but barring that use a CI-4 type of the highest vis you can find and add a can of STP (do they still make it?)or run engines once a month would not hurt if possible to do so.
Bruce

TallPaul · Jul 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by bruce381:
...having the oil "stick" to upper engine parts is the problem so I'd use a Mil 212060-D (hard to find) spec oil ...

It is best for the oil to shut the engine off good and hot so all the combustion byproducts are burnt off, but for getting oil to stick to the upper innards it would be better to go out on a perfectly cold day start it up for half a minute and shut it down. Maybe this cold shut down works in the case of your going to toss the oil anyway?

As for the Mil spec, do you know of any commonly available oils that meet it? Just curious.

Craig · Jul 25, 2005

Brian,
I have been using Amsoil European 5W-40 in our '01
turbo 1.8 VW since it came out and I feel it's the one of
the best out there. It has a HT/HS of 4.2 which is quite
good. Our 1.8 purrs like a kitten.
Craig

Pablo · Jul 25, 2005

I actually find myself agreeing with G-man...pure entertainment. We got "mil specs" going and "is made from" statements...my oh my.

Better is indeed a relative statement. Larry L - was your question ever answered?

Lest we get some facts in this thread someone will wander in here in 2073 AD and think we lost it....

Bruce makes some points, but too much relativism and is just asking Larry L's question and answering it. STP?

MolaKule · Jul 25, 2005

quote:

For engines that sit-up for long periods of time, such as those on tractors and industrial equipment, are PAO's better than ester-based oils? What about corrosion resistance? Thanks.

Corrosion resistance is determined mostly by the the surface protection additives, irregardlesss of the base oil so take a peek at:

the Question of the Day thread under "Additives V, Additive XI, and Additives XII."

Also, you might take a look at our Classic Form product for cars that sit a lot more than their driven.

MolaKule · Jul 25, 2005

quote:

best protection would be from a MIL-21260D oil this is an additized motor oil for long term protection of mil spec vehicles if not that try a high TBN diesel oil like CI-4.

Bruce,

What is in the MIL-PRF-21260E spec that convinces you that this oil is any different from a good HDD oil?

MolaKule · Jul 25, 2005

quote:

, I was looking for someone to explain the difference in lay man's terms. Right now I am using Amsoil Euro 5W-40 and from what I have been reading, it is a PAO base stock and very stable, but is there a better oil out there that it's base stock is derived from Esters or do I indeed have a good oil.

The Euro is a MAJORITY PAO with some TMP esters and an additive package.

If you go to the Interesting Articles Thread and search for Esters and PAO, there are some white papers on those topics as well.

Most full synthetic OTS PCMO oils today are majority PAO base oil with a minority of ester oil, say on a ratio of 85 to 15, respectively, and this will vary, depending on formulation philosophy, cost, and testing.

Now Redline's oil has a majority POE ester content.

The PAO serves as the main lubricity agent, and has high thermal and oxidation stability. Since PAO's have low miscibility (mixing or solving)potential due to their low chemical polarity, esters or other Group VI fluids are often used to increase the miscibility potential in order to solve the additives. As I stated in other threads, this is not so much a problem anymore since so many additives are in ester form, especially the dispersants. This negates having to use a high percentage of TMP or POE esters.

So why use esters at all? Esters improve the lubricity of the oil (reduce friction), swell the seals ever so slightly, improve fluid clarity and transparency because of their excellent solving capabilities, reduce the oxidation potential, reduce the volatility (reduce evaporation because of their thermal stabilities), lower the pour point below that which PAO's can offer, and increase the flash and fire point temp specs.

And for those who worry about full synthetic fluids damaging seals, stay tuned for the results of the tests that I have been conducting. You will be suprized at the results.

[ July 25, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: MolaKule ]

bruce381 · Jul 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by MolaKule:

quote:

best protection would be from a MIL-21260D oil this is an additized motor oil for long term protection of mil spec vehicles if not that try a high TBN diesel oil like CI-4.

Click to expand...

Bruce,

What is in the MIL-PRF-21260E spec that convinces you that this oil is any different from a good HDD oil?

Read the spec and look at the corrosion tests hat this oil must pass. This is a basic motor oil that has 2.5-3.0% Alox 502A.

This will give a salt water pass and a 12 day 100% humidity pass much better than a non additized diesel motor oil. Alox 502A was the old Alox 2200. Can be used at 5.0% for a 30 day pass on in humidity cabinet. The old Alox 2200 was a Barium sulfonate now do not know maybe Calcium.
bruce

416Rigby · Jul 25, 2005

Thanks for the info. I asked because some folks have a very low opinion of ester-based oils when it comes to protecting an engine from corrosion. Don't want to put Redline in some of my engines unless I'm sure it can handle long periods of inactivity.
Bruce, the .416 can "cure" recoil sensitivity in most shooters very effectively! Though, you may not want to shoot one ever again.

y_p_w · Jul 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Woods:
PAO is made from Hydrocarbons, the same stuff dino oil is made from. But it lasts longer and pure PAO is safe for use as a food additive and when used as a drilling fluid doesn't polute the earth. Ester is made from animal and vegetable fats, and is used mainly in aircraft turbine oils and used as a blend agent with PAO to balance the seal swell/shrink problem. Each is equally great when used properly.

Not exactly.

PAO is made from ethylene gas. The source can be either ethane from natural gas (about 25% ethane) or from cracking petroleum distillates. I believe that the natural gas route is the one most common for PAO production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene

Synthetic esters are made from reacting acids with alcohols. The acids may be animal or vegetable fats (fatty acids) but don't have to be. Acetate is technically an ester. Of course there's polyesters.

y_p_w · Jul 25, 2005

I find the original question a little bit troublesome.

It's like asking if rubber, polyester, or steel is a better material for tires. The answer of course is a combination of the three. A combination of PAO and esters is ideal because PAO or esters alone have shortcomings that blending takes care of.

HardCharger · Jul 25, 2005

quote:

Originally posted by Blue99:

quote:

I don't know. 10-18,000 mile OCI's seem pretty darn "extended drain", wouldn't you say. I don't see anyone even attempting these OCI's w/ GC or especially M1 0W-30.

Click to expand...

Ahh, I believe this would be a Redline guy having a cow!

I'm definitely not "having a cow". Maybe a small goat. Seriously, I have no preference for Redline other than the fact that they are a manufacturer of supposedly fine ester based oils. I am simply stating what they claim in their literature.

PAO vs. ESTER oils? which one is better?

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