P0420 after long drive?

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I never said they have to be used exclusively. I said I would start there first before using Bosch in a non-bosch originated situation and then I explained why. Go back and read what I said.

I never said Bosch products were bad either. I said they can have problems where they weren't what the OE sent out the factory door but that in applications where Bosch was the factory choice that they usually work fine. (paraphrasing).

I then went on to further explain that I'm not sure why this is the case and offered possible stabs in the dark as to what it could be.

Then you decided to call me out on it and I explained further and provided proof and now you are asking me why Bosch is still in business since 1886? Really?

So again I state. I'm done here. Are you done?
 
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Till tomorrow.
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Originally Posted by Colt45ws
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by Purpfox
Unless you can watch the waveform of both fwd and rear sensors, your not going to get far. And yes anti foulers work when you build them right lol. Verify proper voltage range of the rear o2 if within normal range, sensor is good. or always swap bank one to bank 2 and see if code follows or stays put. simple trouble shooting save you a ton of wasted money


This vehicle has AFR/Wide Band upstream sensors, Comparing voltage to the Narrow Band rear sensors does no good.

If you know what it should look like you dont need to compare to the forward....



The precise nature of using AFR sensors for feedback fueling control means the PCM no longer has to quickly toggle lean to rich/rich to lean.
Without the flip/flop toggle.....Do you know what to look for?

The PCM on these vehicles are calculating Catalyst Oxygen Storage Capacity by measuring the reaction(delay) time of the rear narrow band sensor to enriched fueling commands. No longer is it monitored by switch frequency.

I realize that most tests (Pin-point tests in Ford speak) STILL refer to switch frequency for condemning a catalyst, What if the switching frequency is low/stable & P0420/P0430 still set? Install O2's?......And codes still set?

I've seen border-line bad catalyst's with really low storage capacity pass frequency tests & clear monitors on older OBD2 vehicles, That's the past.....
 
Originally Posted by Trav
Whats the point? Sure NTK, Denso and Bosch are OE suppliers but that doesn't mean they have to used exclusively. The rest is internet drivel based on here say, if Bosch products were so bad why do OE still use them? Why are they still in business since 1886?
.

Hold on there partner... What about A1 Cardone? Total trash and yet they're still in business!
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But I have nothing to add about the Bosch thing
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I'm a member over at LS1TECH....So I looked up the "Yet another testimony against Bosch oxygen sensors" thread that was in StevieC's Google list of "Proof"......Bunch of non-sense as usual.

I've installed Bosch narrow band O2's on hundreds of LSx powered vehicles & NEVER had an issue that was related to them being a Robert Bosch product!
GM has never used Bosch NB O2's as OE that I'm aware of & they work just as well as the MORE expensive AC & Denso OE sensors from the dealer.

The "lock" can be a little stiff on Bosch connectors....You must seat them!!! The girly limp-wrist approach doesn't work.

Certain Chrysler products can be sensitive to non-OE sensors because their Bias Voltages are goofy.
 
I just googled it to show proof that others have raised the question over their concerns. If I had scan-tool snap shots of the codes and had documented the sensor changes we did over the years I would gladly post it here.

Chrysler uses a 5 volt bias voltage. 5 volts is a standard voltage for a lot of modern electronic circuits. Not sure why that is "Goofy"
 
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Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by Colt45ws
Originally Posted by clinebarger
Originally Posted by Purpfox
Unless you can watch the waveform of both fwd and rear sensors, your not going to get far. And yes anti foulers work when you build them right lol. Verify proper voltage range of the rear o2 if within normal range, sensor is good. or always swap bank one to bank 2 and see if code follows or stays put. simple trouble shooting save you a ton of wasted money


This vehicle has AFR/Wide Band upstream sensors, Comparing voltage to the Narrow Band rear sensors does no good.

If you know what it should look like you dont need to compare to the forward....



The precise nature of using AFR sensors for feedback fueling control means the PCM no longer has to quickly toggle lean to rich/rich to lean.
Without the flip/flop toggle.....Do you know what to look for?

The PCM on these vehicles are calculating Catalyst Oxygen Storage Capacity by measuring the reaction(delay) time of the rear narrow band sensor to enriched fueling commands. No longer is it monitored by switch frequency.

I realize that most tests (Pin-point tests in Ford speak) STILL refer to switch frequency for condemning a catalyst, What if the switching frequency is low/stable & P0420/P0430 still set? Install O2's?......And codes still set?

I've seen border-line bad catalyst's with really low storage capacity pass frequency tests & clear monitors on older OBD2 vehicles, That's the past.....


I'd probably goose the throttle a few times and see how it reacts. Hmm. I should pull that data on Grandpa's 2018 Exploder and see what it looks like as a known good baseline.
 
Originally Posted by StevieC
Originally Posted by Falcon_LS
What's wrong with Bosch oxygen sensors? I've got them on my XJ8L, Expedition and SRX. Am I missing something?




Myself included have used Bosch emission components and spark plugs instead of the OE brand it originally came with and had issues with it causing the CEL to come on or in the case of spark plugs, poor performance.
Changed it out for another Bosch and same problem would reappear, then I went back to the brand it came with such as NTK or Denso or whatever and the problem goes away.

I have tried this numerous time due to part availability and taking the chance on a Bosch part instead of the OE brand it originally came with and it would almost certainly have issues every time. Not all the time, but more times than not.

.


Okay back to this. You keep saying you didn't say anything bad about Bosch but yet you didn't say aftermarket you named Bosch specifically as can be seen above so you cant walk that back.
Of course a part may not work properly if they got the spec wrong but that can happen if an NTK or anything else is used in an engine that came Bosch as OE right?

When dealing with brand name quality parts its usually not that the part is defective in most cases its simply the incorrect part for that application, most parts are said to fit this car and usually a host of others but there are catalog errors where one engine is different in some way eg heater circuit amps.
This is where a real mechanic has it all over one with a you tube PhD (you admitted in another thread you were not a mechanic), when verifying the repair a sensor not heating properly or has other issues will be quickly seen as soon as the engine goes into closed loop.


It would be very rare to run into issues using a brand name part and for you to call a company out as having questionable quality is not right, if you said there were issues with $10 Chinese parts sold on ebay I wouldn't dispute that as that may be a distinct possibility as many are knocked off.
Its people like you that perpetuate these internet myths that people like you then use the postings as proof. Not a personal attack but its known that you use you tube then parrot it as an authority, I doubt you have done little if any real work on cars other than what you have seen your dad do.
 
I wasn't slandering them if that's how you took it. All I was pointing out is that there seemed to be a problem using Bosch in an application that might have had an NTK originally (example). I didn't come out and say Bosch is terrible and no one should ever buy it. This is supported by me talking about that Bosch works fine in Bosch originated applications. I think you are reading too much into it.

I'm not a mechanic (I have been open about this) but my dad is and has owned a few successful shops at which I have worked at over the years before he retired recently due to health problems. 50 years fixing cars and rebuilding engines and transmissions teaches you a few things about commonalities such as what I was describing. I was close to writing the exams here to get my license but decided not to and went to post secondary education instead and I'm glad I did because of my back injury that would have severely restricted what I can and can't do and this would have been a disaster if I chose the mechanic route.

I also offered that I'm not sure what is causing the problem and offered stabs in the dark as to why. I was clear about this. Again I'm not slandering Bosch just stating that it has been my experience, my dad's experience, the experience of other BITOG-er's, and other folks on the internet that when a Bosch emission component or sparkplug is used in a non-originating Bosch application it CAN cause problems but that in a Bosch-originated application is seems to be fine!

I offered as much proof of this over the internet as I have available. I'm glad your experiences haven't been this way but I'm sorry there are a lot of us that have had it so we try to stick to OE originated parts as the first go to when it comes to Emission components and spark plugs before choosing Bosch if it wasn't originally equipped with this.

Happy Friday!
 
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Originally Posted by StevieC

Chrysler uses a 5 volt bias voltage. 5 volts is a standard voltage for a lot of modern electronic circuits. Not sure why that is "Goofy"


You should learn the difference between Bias & Reference voltages......While a 5-Volt Reference is VERY common on sensors such as MAP & TPS. I would say there isn't a "standard" for Bias voltages.

While Chrysler uses a resisted 5-Volt Bias on their O2 signal circuits......Nobody else does! For example, GM uses a 447mV Bias & Ford uses a Zero-Volt Bias.....Most other manufactures use either the 1/2-Volt Bias like GM or a Zero-Volt Bias like Ford on their NB O2's.

To elaborate on my statement about "some" Chrysler's having goofy Bias voltages......It had nothing to do with the 5-Volt Bias on the Signal Circuit!
It's of no consequence with an Actual (Zero-Volt) Low Reference, The 5-Volt will pull down to the "Normal/Standard" Zero to One Volt range once the sensor is hot enough.
**Chrysler refers to the Low Reference as "Oxygen Sensor Return"

"Some" Chrysler's use a 2.5-Volt Bias on what would be the Low Reference Circuit ALONG with the 5-Volt Bias on the Signal Circuit. I guess technically the 2.5-Volts on the Sensor Return Circuit IS actually a Reference Voltage. And I was wrong by referring to it as a Bias Voltage!
This type of system still has a 1-Volt switching range, But the range/Voltage is offset.......3.0-Volts is now Center, 2.5-Volts is Low, & 3.5-Volts is High.
I've had issues using Non-OE sensors on this particular system.....Including NTK, Denso, & Bosch.
You would be hard pressed to find printed references to this Goofy system, I've seem FSM's say the range is Zero to 1-Volt!

Not everything is in a book or on the Internet, Some information & Diagnostic techniques must be learned/found the hard way....In the Trenches!!!
 
Sorry I did mean reference but said bias because it was mentioned in the post I was responding to. Simple case of I goofed in what I was saying.
 
I had the same code on my old Civic for about 4 years. It'd pop up every few months and I'd reset it. Dealer mechanic said the sensors are so touchy due to pollution concerns that if I didn't notice rough idle or worse gas mileage just keep resetting it. Don't know if this is good advice or not, but it worked for me. Be wary of aftermarket cats, I've heard. They tend to not be much cheaper and die sooner, if it is the cat.
 
You can put a cal cat on most cars for 1/3 of OE and they have a 5yr warranty on rust through and cat efficiency, $400 is a heck of a lot cheaper than $1200 for an OE which is common. On an older car using one makes a lot more sense.
I buy them from Auto Zone because even though they are a bit more expensive ($5 more than rock last time with a 20% code) they honor the warranty no questions asked.

I had one rot at the flanges after 4.5 years, I called them they asked me my phone because I couldn't find the receipt, they found it and said it will be here at noon tomorrow, bring the old one. Done deal it didn't cost a dime and they warranty the new one for 5 years.
Cal cats have more wash coat and the P420 stays away for the 5 years at least, if not you get a new one. Not everything aftermarket sucks.

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Space the O2 sensor behind the cat using spark plug anti-foulers. $6 fix and it buys you plenty of time. Google it and you will see. I've probably done 50-60 of them and all but 1 worked.
 
Originally Posted by Trav
They even sell them with an angle, but if the car came with a cat I want it to work, a cat is a good thing IMO


Yes, I agree. However the P0430/420 codes set at only a 10% ineffieciency level in most cases so the CAT still has plenty of life. But, agree, replacement is ideally the best repair but many people are on such tight budgets or are selling the car soon that I usually end up spacing them.
 
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