P.E.I's school bus electrification paused due to receivership

[OVERKILL]

https://www.ctvnews.ca/atlantic/pri...-roadblock-as-company-files-for-receivership/

P.E.I. had been working to electrify their school bus fleet, but this has hit a bit of a snag, as the company they are procuring the school busses from, Lion Electric, has gone into receivership:

https://financialpost.com/commoditi...les/lion-electric-customers-worried-what-next

Somehow, the Quebec-based company that has managed to obtain 33% of the market share of electric busses in North America is in such dire financial straights that it has laid off pretty much everybody except for 160 customer service and maintenance people

Also, the second article points to many issues with the busses including heating issues, battery issues and even one fire.

 

[ripcord]

Insurance and warranty costs become prohibitive when your products catch on fire too often?

 

[RAVL]

Unbelievable stupidity, electric buses. You take a vehicle that normally is carrying a few dozen kids plus the driver and is generally driven within a compact area (the bus depot, the local morning and afternoon routes, and back to the depot) and so by definition an internal combustion engine is very efficient under these circumstances because you are carrying so many people, and not driving it solo for long. And it is effective for the tax payers because a diesel or gasoline powered bus will generally last for 20 years. You take that vehicle and replace it with a vehicle that is less proven mechanically, where the efficiencies of a battery electric powertrain are less attractive because it is carrying dozens of people, and likely costs significantly more than the internal combustion powered equivalent. Again, unbelievable. They are doing the same thing here, it's all virtue signaling without rationale. The best use case for electrics is the single passenger vehicle commuter. Take a gas hog and load it with 4-6 people and it actually is relatively efficient.

 

[f355spider]

Our former governor for the state of WA pushed for electrification of our ferry system...nothing but delays and cost over runs. In the meantime, we are short about 7 or 8 ferries and during the summer travel seasons the past three years, hours long delays to catch a ferry...

Fortunately, our new governor is hinting about ditching all or part of this plan and get some more diesel ferries built sooner. Seriously, even if they converted the entire state fleet, this makes so little difference...just public grandstanding by our former governor.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...-ferry-delayed-a-year-and-the-cost-is-rising/

 

[ripcord]

Our former governor for the state of WA pushed for electrification of our ferry system...nothing but delays and cost over runs. In the meantime, we are short about 7 or 8 ferries and during the summer travel seasons the past three years, hours long delays to catch a ferry...

Fortunately, our new governor is hinting about ditching all or part of this plan and get some more diesel ferries built sooner.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattl...-ferry-delayed-a-year-and-the-cost-is-rising/

Another boondoggle and sounds like a safety nightmare. A battery fire onboard while underway could be catastrophic.

 

[f355spider]

Another boondoggle and sounds like a safety nightmare. A battery fire onboard while underway could be catastrophic.

I don't think safety is a huge concern. The technology they are using has been used for a number of years in Europe on both ships and ferries. The problem currently is trying to retrofit an existing ship.

The other issue is building new ferries with batteries...there are not many ship builders with the necessary experience, along with our stupid contracting requirements for a "WA State only" builder, which further reduces the bidders and costs dramatically. They are going to change the law to allow open bidding to anyone based in the USA.

 

[supton]

Unbelievable stupidity, electric buses. You take a vehicle that normally is carrying a few dozen kids plus the driver and is generally driven within a compact area (the bus depot, the local morning and afternoon routes, and back to the depot) and so by definition an internal combustion engine is very efficient under these circumstances because you are carrying so many people, and not driving it solo for long. And it is effective for the tax payers because a diesel or gasoline powered bus will generally last for 20 years. You take that vehicle and replace it with a vehicle that is less proven mechanically, where the efficiencies of a battery electric powertrain are less attractive because it is carrying dozens of people, and likely costs significantly more than the internal combustion powered equivalent. Again, unbelievable. They are doing the same thing here, it's all virtue signaling without rationale. The best use case for electrics is the single passenger vehicle commuter. Take a gas hog and load it with 4-6 people and it actually is relatively efficient.

Not sure I follow. Buses are very start/stop, which is not efficient; regenerative braking does not recoup 100% of the energy but it does something better than naught. And electrics have less pieces, let alone the latest & greatest diesel emissions requirements that have been oh so reliable and cheap to repair.

Now the high purchase price, the need for umpteen overnight chargers, short(er) battery life (and high cost of replacement), and heating woes in winter--that I can't argue with.

 

[ripcord]

I don't think safety is a huge concern. The technology they are using has been used for a number of years in Europe on both ships and ferries. The problem currently is trying to retrofit an existing ship.

The other issue is building new ferries with batteries...there are not many ship builders with the necessary experience, along with our stupid contracting requirements for a "WA State only" builder, which further reduces the bidders and costs dramatically. They are going to change the law to allow open bidding to anyone based in the USA.

I'm not so sanguine. The WA Ferry system has had some serious issues in the past decade.

 

[y_p_w]

Unbelievable stupidity, electric buses. You take a vehicle that normally is carrying a few dozen kids plus the driver and is generally driven within a compact area (the bus depot, the local morning and afternoon routes, and back to the depot) and so by definition an internal combustion engine is very efficient under these circumstances because you are carrying so many people, and not driving it solo for long. And it is effective for the tax payers because a diesel or gasoline powered bus will generally last for 20 years. You take that vehicle and replace it with a vehicle that is less proven mechanically, where the efficiencies of a battery electric powertrain are less attractive because it is carrying dozens of people, and likely costs significantly more than the internal combustion powered equivalent. Again, unbelievable. They are doing the same thing here, it's all virtue signaling without rationale. The best use case for electrics is the single passenger vehicle commuter. Take a gas hog and load it with 4-6 people and it actually is relatively efficient.

Not really. The majority of ICE buses are diesel, and now you're dealing with all sorts of issues with modern, low-sulfur diesel requirements. They typically operate once in the morning and once in the afternoon, so that's typically two cold starts. I never rode a school bus to school, but often we'd go on field trips in one. Many of my schools were on hills, and they typically weren't very good going uphill. Diesel transit buses generally weren't very good either when there was a full load. Our school district had a deal with the local transit bus company and we'd often have to crowd to the front because it would bog down with too many kids in the back. Electric drive is generally pretty good at going up hills.

But I'd think the big benefit would be none of that diesel exhaust, especially when warmed up and waiting for passengers. That's clearly the biggest benefit since theses are supposed to be serving school kids.

Not sure about this company, but Blue Bird is doing pretty well.

https://www.newsweek.com/electric-bus-maker-blue-bird-schooling-ev-skeptics-stock-soars-1918833

And at this point I think Thomas Built (owned by Daimler now) is also doing pretty well. Does sound interesting since their EV drive system is from Cummins and not based off of an in-house platform (i.e. Freightliner). They bought out Detroit Diesel from GM, and apparently the brand name is now just "Detroit" because of their move into electric powertrains.

https://northamerica.daimlertruck.c...t-buses-unveils-next-gen-electric-2025-01-07/

 

[honeeagle]

I thought lion had another fire just this week.
2 so far, nothing as useless as a empty bus- because parents will boycott them if they feel their kids are in the least danger.

 

[Opelman]

Not really. The majority of ICE buses are diesel, and now you're dealing with all sorts of issues with modern, low-sulfur diesel requirements. They typically operate once in the morning and once in the afternoon, so that's typically two cold starts. I never rode a school bus to school, but often we'd go on field trips in one. Many of my schools were on hills, and they typically weren't very good going uphill. Diesel transit buses generally weren't very good either when there was a full load. Our school district had a deal with the local transit bus company and we'd often have to crowd to the front because it would bog down with too many kids in the back. Electric drive is generally pretty good at going up hills.

But I'd think the big benefit would be none of that diesel exhaust, especially when warmed up and waiting for passengers. That's clearly the biggest benefit since theses are supposed to be serving school kids.

Not sure about this company, but Blue Bird is doing pretty well.

https://www.newsweek.com/electric-bus-maker-blue-bird-schooling-ev-skeptics-stock-soars-1918833

And at this point I think Thomas Built (owned by Daimler now) is also doing pretty well. Does sound interesting since their EV drive system is from Cummins and not based off of an in-house platform (i.e. Freightliner). They bought out Detroit Diesel from GM, and apparently the brand name is now just "Detroit" because of their move into electric powertrains.

https://northamerica.daimlertruck.c...t-buses-unveils-next-gen-electric-2025-01-07/

Odd that Thomas went Cummins. Blue Bird is using Cummins with several now at the school district I retired from. They have been a dismal failure. Poorly engineered with issues that Bird nor Cummins can fix. Luckily no catastrophic traction battery failures yet.

 

[DukeOfFrontenac]

My school busses had a Chevy V8 and a 4 speed. 3 foot long shifter. Zero emissions equipment. Always reeked of gasoline fumes, oil leaks and coolant. If the driver blew a shift all us punk kids would yell "Grind me a pound!". They rarely broke down. Tons of fun if it snowed. Good times.

 

[Snagglefoot]

The root cause is central planning committee deciding to spend money on electric vehicles used twice per day each, sitting the rest of the time except for the one bus taking the team to the basket ball game.

 

[SC Maintenance]

Only governments go around "fixing" unbroken problems.

 

[dubber09]

Gov officials should replace their ICE cars and to buy EVs with their own money 'to lead by example' first...

 

[f355spider]

I'm not so sanguine. The WA Ferry system has had some serious issues in the past decade.

Firing all the ferry staff that wouldn't get the shot, then not rehiring or allowing them back was a pretty fatal mistake creating massive staffing issues every summer...there is not enough students in maritime academies and programs to fill those positions for years.

 

[RAVL]

Not really. The majority of ICE buses are diesel, and now you're dealing with all sorts of issues with modern, low-sulfur diesel requirements. They typically operate once in the morning and once in the afternoon, so that's typically two cold starts. I never rode a school bus to school, but often we'd go on field trips in one. Many of my schools were on hills, and they typically weren't very good going uphill. Diesel transit buses generally weren't very good either when there was a full load. Our school district had a deal with the local transit bus company and we'd often have to crowd to the front because it would bog down with too many kids in the back. Electric drive is generally pretty good at going up hills.

But I'd think the big benefit would be none of that diesel exhaust, especially when warmed up and waiting for passengers. That's clearly the biggest benefit since theses are supposed to be serving school kids.

Not sure about this company, but Blue Bird is doing pretty well.

https://www.newsweek.com/electric-bus-maker-blue-bird-schooling-ev-skeptics-stock-soars-1918833

And at this point I think Thomas Built (owned by Daimler now) is also doing pretty well. Does sound interesting since their EV drive system is from Cummins and not based off of an in-house platform (i.e. Freightliner). They bought out Detroit Diesel from GM, and apparently the brand name is now just "Detroit" because of their move into electric powertrains.

https://northamerica.daimlertruck.c...t-buses-unveils-next-gen-electric-2025-01-07/

There is a lot to say but it has been a long week and I am tired, and I see you are from San Francisco and so I am likely wasting my breath. But diesel is still the most viable power source for heavy duty trucks - if you need proof look around you. The transport companies have to answer to shareholders and so outside of places like CA where they are being coerced by regulation, heavy duty trucks are diesel, and buses are no different. It is only where officials kiss the asses of green sycophants that you see commercial vehicles powered by anything other than diesels. What I am looking forward to is when CA mandates heavy duty trucks use batteries. Better yet freight locomotives.

 

[RAVL]

Not sure I follow. Buses are very start/stop, which is not efficient; regenerative braking does not recoup 100% of the energy but it does something better than naught. And electrics have less pieces, let alone the latest & greatest diesel emissions requirements that have been oh so reliable and cheap to repair.

Now the high purchase price, the need for umpteen overnight chargers, short(er) battery life (and high cost of replacement), and heating woes in winter--that I can't argue with.

It is the purchase cost, the need for chargers and starting woes in winter. And the fact that at least for the foreseeable future, battery packs are not economically feasible to change, and you have to consider that lifespan against the lifespan of a heavy duty diesel drivetrain.

 

[ripcord]

There is a lot to say but it has been a long week and I am tired, and I see you are from San Francisco and so I am likely wasting my breath. But diesel is still the most viable power source for heavy duty trucks - if you need proof look around you. The transport companies have to answer to shareholders and so outside of places like CA where they are being coerced by regulation, heavy duty trucks are diesel, and buses are no different. It is only where officials kiss the asses of green sycophants that you see commercial vehicles powered by anything other than diesels. What I am looking forward to is when CA mandates heavy duty trucks use batteries. Better yet freight locomotives. Complete idiocy that could only be embraced by people who have never taken a bus or worked a day with their hands. It is such a shame what California has become.

CARB has read the writing on the wall and this week and it's withdrawn its request from the EPA for the waiver that California needed to go forward with it's plan to severely curtail heavy diesel trucks. For at least the next 4 years, the trucking industry has a reprieve.

 

[y_p_w]

There is a lot to say but it has been a long week and I am tired, and I see you are from San Francisco and so I am likely wasting my breath. But diesel is still the most viable power source for heavy duty trucks - if you need proof look around you. The transport companies have to answer to shareholders and so outside of places like CA where they are being coerced by regulation, heavy duty trucks are diesel, and buses are no different. It is only where officials kiss the asses of green sycophants that you see commercial vehicles powered by anything other than diesels. What I am looking forward to is when CA mandates heavy duty trucks use batteries. Better yet freight locomotives.

I'll try to ignore the first few parts because I know any response in kind is going to result in moderation. That being said, I'm thinking I should respond to the rest of this because this is going to get locked.

But I will respond to you about your last point. The best thing for freight locomotives would be pure electrification operating off of catenaries. Maybe some small battery backup.