Optimizing as per Dr Haas

[rjacket]

I read with great interest the writings of Dr Haas.

If one wanted to follow his methods, then am I right that I need to do the following

1) Find out the recommended psi for my engine
2) Find these out for a range of rpms
3) Fit an oil pressure gauge after the filter
4) Run the thinnest oil I can that keeps oil pressure at the recommended psi

If so, where can I find these recommended psis and does anybody have any tips for a good oil pressure gauge and how to fit it.

Lastly, if this logic is the best way to maintain your engine, then it would be great if cars could automatically recommend what oil to use.

What I mean by this is if there is already an oil pressure sensor in your car, then presumably the computer could record the oil pressure at different rpms (may need to upgrade the sensor). It could report back to you whether you were within optimum parameters and whether or not you should go with a heavier or lighter oil (presuming the goal is to maintain the right oil pressure).

Btw, why is the goal to maintain the right oil pressure? If flow = lubrication and higher flow lubricates the best, wouldn't the goal be to maximize flow and therefore minimize pressure?

 

[The_Jeff]

High flow doesn't necessarily lubricate the best, but it performs other functions like heat removal that are equally important. You could up the pressure and flow with a high volume pump, but the drag on the engine would increase and fuel efficiency would sutffer.

The stock pump is a compromise between great flow and adequate pressure at hot idle, and ridiculous pressure and lower flow with a cold engine at high RPM-- pressure that's getting bled off by the bypass. If one can thin the oil out so less gets dumped through the bypass, more will flow through the bearings, but one doesn't want to (unknowingly) go so thin there isn't any getting bypassed because then pressure starts to drop. Monitoring is then needed to make sure it's not too low.

I have heard 20 PSI at idle, and another 6 PSI per 1000 RPM as a general minimum guideline.

 

[dahonam]

AEM Oil Pressure Gauge

 

[Steve S]

I would say you need something more important to worry about. Use what the MFG recommends.

 

[lipadj46]

Originally Posted By: rjacket
I read with great interest the writings of Dr Haas.


You are talking about the plastic surgeon correct?

 

[4ever4d]

I also enjoy reading what Dr.Haas writes although it is logical i feel it may be a little "overkill" for a daily driver as long as you stick to the proper vis and oci i don't think anyone will have any issues with longevity in their vehicle of choice,from what i gather his vehicles are high output and he tracks them often this makes his methods the overkill i mentioned imo of course.

 

[OVERKILL]

While I find his adventures into the unknown rather intriguing, and most definitely entertaining, unless you are in a financial position to be able to replace your engine with little regard for the cost of doing so... following in his footsteps may not be for you.

He is an intelligent man with a lot of money. A quick look at his stable will readily tell you that. He can afford to run 0w20 in a Ferrari that spec's 10w60 because he can readily foot the bill to fix it if his theory doesn't jive with the mechanics of the car.

And while his dissertations are well written and thought provoking they are, as mentioned above, those of a plastic surgeon, not a tribologist and that should be in the back of one's mind when considering them.

 

[Y_K]

Intelligence of a medical doctor should not be questioned. He probably spent 17 years of nominal formal training not counting continuous education docs are required to go through perpetually. The only reservation I do have is that he does not have a test bench full of the most advanced metrology equipment running wear tests in real time without the need to tear down battery of engines. What he does is fun and his observations are valuable. He is true to his professional ethics: testing new vaccines on himself and sharing his observations with the public. And I am grateful to him for that, yet his risk/reward ratio is different than mine.

 

[NateDN10]

Quote:
Intelligence of a medical doctor should not be questioned. He probably spent 17 years of nominal formal training not counting continuous education docs are required to go through perpetually. The only reservation I do have is that he does not have a test bench full of the most advanced metrology equipment running wear tests in real time without the need to tear down battery of engines.


I don't doubt that he's very intelligent. But would you rather drive a car designed by a team of mechanical engineers or surgeons? As smart as the surgeons might be, they're not trained to design cars.

 

[Nickdfresh]

Originally Posted By: lipadj46
Originally Posted By: rjacket
I read with great interest the writings of Dr Haas.


You are talking about the plastic surgeon correct?

Who's written some interesting stuff and has put his money where his mouth is. I'm not saying I agree with everything he says, but he's knowledgeable and influential...

 

[Y_K]

I am not driving a single car designed by surgeons yet. I am simply fascinated by his devotion to experimentation. And you missed my point expressed in my last sentence. I am with you on that. I believe it's utterly rude and myopic to dismiss his work on a formal basis. Form versus substance. Substantively, he does [mostly] empirical work without proper statistical and specialized metrology base. I do not follow his advice - I follow his work with interest and curiosity. And I don't care whether he is a surgeon, a milkman, a drug dealer or a Child in Chief.

------------------------------------------------------------
"'Perhaps I can guess the other one,' she said; and reaching up on her tiptoes she kissed him softly in the illustration."

 

[XS650]

Originally Posted By: Y_K
Intelligence of a medical doctor should not be questioned. He probably spent 17 years of nominal formal training not counting continuous education docs are required to go through perpetually. The only reservation I do have is that he does not have a test bench full of the most advanced metrology equipment running wear tests in real time without the need to tear down battery of engines. What he does is fun and his observations are valuable.


Much of what is attributed to the wisdom of home garage experimenters is instead a testament to the robustness of modern engine design.

 

[Y_K]

could not agree more

 

[Nickdfresh]

^^Agreed. Also, I think it matters little what you use in regards to a modern oil in a modern engine, whether it's 0W-20 to a 20W-50, when we're talking synthetics...

 

[mechtech2]

An oil temp gauge is what would be most useful by far, if the engine in question is in good condition.
[If you don't get it real hot, you don't need the 60weight oil in your Ferrari.]
Using thinner and thinner oil is what every manufacturer is doing.

 

[Gary Allan]

Originally Posted By: XS650
Originally Posted By: Y_K
Intelligence of a medical doctor should not be questioned. He probably spent 17 years of nominal formal training not counting continuous education docs are required to go through perpetually. The only reservation I do have is that he does not have a test bench full of the most advanced metrology equipment running wear tests in real time without the need to tear down battery of engines. What he does is fun and his observations are valuable.


Much of what is attributed to the wisdom of home garage experimenters is instead a testament to the robustness of modern engine design.


You can extend that to antiquated engine designs and "what happens if you do this" type discovery.

(visions of Dr. Timothy Leary giving the nice horsey some sugar cubes)

 

[Trajan]

Originally Posted By: NateDN10
Quote:
Intelligence of a medical doctor should not be questioned. He probably spent 17 years of nominal formal training not counting continuous education docs are required to go through perpetually. The only reservation I do have is that he does not have a test bench full of the most advanced metrology equipment running wear tests in real time without the need to tear down battery of engines.


I don't doubt that he's very intelligent. But would you rather drive a car designed by a team of mechanical engineers or surgeons? As smart as the surgeons might be, they're not trained to design cars.


Yep. intelligence in one field does not mean intelligence in another. You don't want a plastic surgeon doing a heart transplant any more than you want a master mechanic doing one.

 

[Jim Allen]

Well, someone should answer the OP, huh?

I think it's oil temp that will better point the way to viscosity, not oil pressure on it's own. There are some engineering issues unique to each engine that dictate the viscosity of the oil selected by the OE. Sometimes fuel economy standards play a role in those recommendations, sometimes pushing the viscosity to the low end of the recommended range. These are things we can seldom learn about in detail.

Based on what I've learned (some from reading Dr. Haas), I start with the factory viscosity chart, which recommends viscosity based on climate and sometimes operational situations. Then, I hook up an oil temp gauge and monitor oil temps in my own unique climate and situation over the course of a "normal" year, bearing in mind that the rated viscosity comes at 212F and also cold starting issues. I also look at oil pressure throughout the process. I also factor in the used oil analysis for the engine and note any viscosity shearing over the OCI.

I can only speak to the two vehicles I have played with extensively, '86 F-150 6.9L diesel and '05 Ford F-150 5.4L gas V8, but I have found the factory recommendations to be pretty well dead on. I have extrapolated on some other equipment of mine that I have less data on.

In the case of the 6.9L diesel, I went from a 15W40 to a 10W30 because the truck is short-hopped and even when working, oil temp seldom reaches 200 degrees, let alone 212. A good part of the time, the engine is running in 40 grade anyway. I discovered that the change from 15W40 to 10W30 was worth about 4psi oil pressure difference at normal oil temp.

The 5.4L in the '05 Ford is still on 5W20 and seldom is the oil temp over 200, so I have stayed with that viscosity.

How and where to hook up and oil pressure gauge, (and if you intend to experiment, I would suggest an oil temp gauge) varies from vehicle to vehicle, so there is little comment I can make. You might be lucky and be able to read all that via the OBD-II port. Many higher end programmers offer real time monitoring of such things and there is also the ScanGauge product (Google it).

All that said, I have begun seeing ]that the OE's viscosity recommendations, if they cover your particular situation, seem pretty close to right. At least the ones I've looked at hard. In the etherous realm of Ferraris and other high performance supercarscars, I think those heavy oil recommendations stem from the high performance aspects, where high oil temps are seen. I think a lot of Haas' driving is in less stressful situations and his supercars don't need the heavy stuff day to day. He acknowledges the need for heavier oil in the right situations, so I don't believe he's necessarily advocating 20 grade for all. Where I see the holes in the performance car recommendations is in those day to day situations... but I'll bet the OE has that figured out. They just would rather keep the recommendations simple. You aren't going to blow up an engine using a 15W50 driving like Grandma, but you might driving like Mario with 5W20. Most people don't know the difference. Haas does. It works for him.

To me, the gist of this is simple. There's heavy oil. There's light oil. And there's the RIGHT oil. No one-size-fits-all.


As an aside, it seems there are a number of BITOGers that can't resist the chance to diss Haas. The OP asked a question based on the writings and opinions of Haas found here and elsewhere. Instead of dealing with the substance of that question, pro or con in any useful detail, it turns into a Haas-bashing session. Dismissing him as "just" a plastic surgeon or a rich boy that plays with expensive toys is a chinzy, low-brow way of getting out of having a discussion on the merits of the argument. Given the amount of study Haas has put into his material, his opinions cannot be easily dismissed... even if you disagree. Some of you have ably presented your argument on the merits previously. If you are too busy to do so again, please resist the urge to resort to one-line, semi-veiled insults and dismissals. It doesn't add anything to the brain trust nor to your reputation.

 

[JoeFromPA]

Jim,

Excellent response.

I want to share something from my own learnings:

I came on BITOG to learn how to maximize all aspects of engine lubrication and longevity.

What I have learned, truly, is that there is almost no established, proven knowledge about which oils (for gasoline engines) consistently perform the best for longevity and lubrication in street driven vehicles.

I can run a 0w20 or 15w50 in almost any application, and under a normal oil change interval I'll probably never know a difference except maybe a bit of gas mileage.

I can take a sport engine like a BMW 3.2 liter I6, or 4.9 liter v8, and run 5w30 or 10w60 in it and driven hard, on the street, I'd probably never discover a difference. The engines would hum along smoothly.

And, lastly, I can run modern conventional or synthetic oils under acceptable durations with no real difference in longevity or engine usefulness.

...

What I have learned here is that oils can run longer than manufacturer recommendations, some much longer, and that air and oil filtration as well as keeping coolant out of the oil is about the most critical things you can do.

And aside from that, Dr. Haas can choose to run 10w60 or 0w20 in his street-driven cars without the engines really caring.

This is just my .02 from spending the last few years on BITOG and learning that the money I spent on used oil analysis were probably fairly useless, except for showing that I could run some oils for 10-20k miles in one of my cars.

 

[d00df00d]

Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
What I have learned, truly, is that there is almost no established, proven knowledge about which oils (for gasoline engines) consistently perform the best for longevity and lubrication in street driven vehicles.

What do you mean by this?

If you mean to say there isn't a hard-and-fast rule, then of course there isn't. There is such a broad range of criteria involved.

If you mean to say no one on BITOG knows, you're essentially correct. Many of the real experts left years ago and the few that are still here rarely post, much less will they answer the kinds of simplistic questions that are asked here.

If you mean to say it isn't a science, then... I don't think I need to comment.


Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
I can take a sport engine like a BMW 3.2 liter I6, or 4.9 liter v8, and run 5w30 or 10w60 in it and driven hard, on the street, I'd probably never discover a difference. The engines would hum along smoothly.

Sounds like you're talking about the M engines. If so, I'd like to hear your rationale on this point.


Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
And, lastly, I can run modern conventional or synthetic oils under acceptable durations with no real difference in longevity or engine usefulness.

The main point of most synthetic oils is that an "acceptable duration" is much longer than for conventional oils. As for the synthetic oils for which that is not the case, they are designed for engines that are so hard on their oil that a conventional oil simply would not work adequately.


Originally Posted By: JoeFromPA
And aside from that, Dr. Haas can choose to run 10w60 or 0w20 in his street-driven cars without the engines really caring.

This completely flies in the face of all the work he has done to compare oils in his cars. Again, what is your rationale?