Ongoing Civic Woes. Repair failed to correct.

OP, as I've been thinking about the Civics, I remembered that one of them did have an issue where I got CEL codes for the crank sensor, when it was actually the cam sensor that needed replacement. Since then, on any engine owned, I always replace all cam & crank sensors at once, even if only one is giving issues. My logic being that if one is bad, then others aren't far behind, as they age at about the same rate.
 
Vladiator said:
OP, as I've been thinking about the Civics, I remembered that one of them did have an issue where I got CEL codes for the crank sensor, when it was actually the cam sensor that needed replacement. Since then, on any engine owned, I always replace all cam & crank sensors at once, even if only one is giving issues. My logic being that if one is bad, then others aren't far behind, as they age at about the same rate.
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I will certainly keep that in mind if the car breaks down again. So far after the ground cleaning, there have been no issues.
 
It’s still broken! It died AGAIN, this time it went into limp mode on the freeway. After dragging it to auto zone, they read the code. 2 codes this time. High current circuit code and top dead center sensor noise aka camshaft sensor. I went ahead and replaced the cam sensor with a Napa echlie brand cam sensor. The car drove fine for 5 minutes, then went back into limp mode. I am about done with this car. Tomorrow I am taking it to a mechanic. If they can’t figure it out, I will dispose of this civic.
 
I took the car to the Honda dealer today. I went to flush $100 down the toilet.

they told me the codes were BOTH crankshaft and camshaft position sensor problems. Despite my assertion that I had put in a quality Denso, made in Japan, sensor, they told me a bunch of reasons why the sensor I put in could not be correct. Something about gaps, wrong part number, yada yada. The camshaft sensor was also causing a code. They quoted $1600 to replace both sensors.

and they also quoted $250 for both OEM sensors. Those sensors are available at rock auto for $60 for Denso parts.

what do bitogers say? Is my new Denso sensor busted already? why is failing the exact same way (gets too hot)? The camshaft sensor was a new NAPA echlie brand cam sensor. Could it have also gone bad in a matter of days? I ready to junk this car.
Can I use a voltmeter to test these sensors at all? How can I differentiate between the sensors going bad or something like the ecu or wiring?

PLEASE HELP!
 
First - get an actual OEM TDC sensor. Many 7th gen Civic owners had this issue and kept replacing sensors often with no luck, until they replaced with an Actual OEM unit and the car is fixed afterwards.

Second - when your car goes into limp mode, does your tachometer and coolant temp gauge act weird? If yes - your ECU is going bad. If no - get an OEM Honda TDC sensor. Be careful with eBay though, lots of counterfeit sensors, that look exactly like OEM part and packaging, and costs $15. Real sensor is $100+. If the ECU is going bad: it is usually a result of an alternator going bad, and alternator grounding bolt shorting out the ECU. Common issue on these 2001-2005 Civics.

Read through this, if you haven't yet - https://www.civicforums.com/forums/329-engine/301242-p1361-code-engine-runs-half-power-2.html
 
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Kurtatron said:
Can I use a voltmeter to test these sensors at all? How can I differentiate between the sensors going bad or something like the ecu or wiring?

PLEASE HELP!
Click to expand...


This is out of Honda Service Manual, assuming you got the following CEL codes. Please let us know your exact codes though.

2001-2005 CIVIC - DTC Troubleshooting: P1361 (8), P1362 (8)
DTC P1361: CMP (TDC) Sensor Intermittent Interruption
DTC P1362: CMP (TDC) Sensor No Signal

1) Reset the ECM/PCM.
2) Start the engine.
Is DTC P1361 and/or P1362 indicated? YES - Go to step 3.
NO - Intermittent failure, system is OK at this time. Check for poor connections or loose terminals at the CMP (TDC) sensor and at the ECM/PCM.
3) Turn the ignition switch OFF.
4) Disconnect the CMP (TDC) sensor 3P connector.
5) Turn the ignition switch ON (II).
6) Measure voltage between CMP (TDC) sensor 3P connector terminal No. 3 and body ground.
Is there battery voltage? YES - Go to step 7.
NO - Repair open in the wire between PGM-FI main relay 1 and the CMP (TDC) sensor.
7) Measure voltage between CMP (TDC) sensor 3P connector terminal No. 2 and body ground.
Is there about 5 V? YES - Go to step 8.
NO - Go to step 10.
8) Measure voltage between CMP (TDC) sensor 3P connector terminals No. 1 and No. 3.
Is there battery voltage? YES - Go to step 9.
NO - Repair open in the wire between the CMP (TDC) sensor and G101.
9) Substitute a known-good CMP (TDC) sensor and recheck.
Is DTC P1361 and/or P1362 indicated? YES - Update the ECM/PCM if it does not have the latest software, or substitute a known-good ECM/PCM, then recheck. If the symptom/indication goes away with a known-good ECM/PCM, replace the original ECM/PCM.
NO - Replace the original CMP (TDC) sensor.
10) Measure voltage between ECM/PCM connector terminal A26 and body ground.
Is there about 5 V? YES - Repair open in the wire between the ECM/PCM (A26) and CMP (TDC) sensor.
NO - Go to step 11.
11) Turn the ignition switch OFF.
12) Disconnect ECM/PCM connector A (31P).
13) Check for continuity between ECM/PCM connector terminal A26 and body ground.
Is there continuity? YES - Repair short in the wire between the ECM/PCM (A26) and the CMP (TDC) sensor.
NO - Update the ECM/PCM if it does not have the latest software, or substitute a known-good ECM/PCM, then recheck. If the symptom/indication goes away with a known-good ECM/PCM, replace the original ECM/PCM.
 
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In case it is your ECU (aka ECM, aka PCM) that is going bad - here is a good source for a cheap DIY, without needing to go to the dealership to reprogram the vin, the keys, and reflash the whole ECU.

DIY ECU/PCM Replacement (no honda re-flash required) - Honda-Tech - Honda Forum Discussion

Engine Management and Tuning - DIY ECU/PCM Replacement (no honda re-flash required) - Hey there Honda people, I recently had to repair a 7th gen civic that had the alternator bolts break off when the engine was running causing the all too common issue of frying the ECU/PCM. When I had finished...
honda-tech.com
 
I hope you get it repaired Vlaidiator. I have had several Civics and to be honest they have all been trouble free. Keep us informed and I hope you get it figured out. My 2012 has been great just like all the others I have owned.
 
joekingcorvette said:
I hope you get it repaired Vlaidiator. I have had several Civics and to be honest they have all been trouble free. Keep us informed and I hope you get it figured out. My 2012 has been great just like all the others I have owned.
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@Kurtatron is the original poster and the one that is looking for repair solutions. I'm just here throwing whatever related info I got into it.
 
Clean, corrosion free grounds are absolutely vital in a modern car. I'd get a good look at that ground point and wire brush it thoroughly. Also get a good look at the end of the ground cable because they can look OK from a distance, but be full of the green corrosion and have half the strands broken.
 
Latest update.
Vladiator, I think you may have been correct about the cam sensor causing the crank trouble code. The car is running trouble-free since swapping a Better cam sensor. Yesterday it was in rush hour Florida traffic for an hour, no problems. No problems today either.

days before, I had swapped in a Napa Echlin cam sensor. The car exhibited the same erratic failure when hot. I went on Amazon to find highly reviewed cam sensors. I got a Beck Arnley cam sensor.

interestingly, when I decided to put in the Napa sensor, I didn’t want to pull the valve cover, so I cut a hole in the timing cover. With that hole, I can swap cam sensors within a matter of 5 minutes.

after swapping in the Bech Arnley, the car has not failed so far.

the Beck is made in Taiwan, the Napa is made in Mexico. I don’t know if it matters or not.

so the cam sensor may have been causing the crankshaft sensor to pop up also? Weird. I am hopeful I have my civic back and reliable again.
 
Did you somehow cover the hole you cut? If not, you will likely have problems from that.
 
Kurtatron said:
Latest update.
Vladiator, I think you may have been correct about the cam sensor causing the crank trouble code. The car is running trouble-free since swapping a Better cam sensor. Yesterday it was in rush hour Florida traffic for an hour, no problems. No problems today either.

days before, I had swapped in a Napa Echlin cam sensor. The car exhibited the same erratic failure when hot. I went on Amazon to find highly reviewed cam sensors. I got a Beck Arnley cam sensor.

interestingly, when I decided to put in the Napa sensor, I didn’t want to pull the valve cover, so I cut a hole in the timing cover. With that hole, I can swap cam sensors within a matter of 5 minutes.

after swapping in the Bech Arnley, the car has not failed so far.

the Beck is made in Taiwan, the Napa is made in Mexico. I don’t know if it matters or not.

so the cam sensor may have been causing the crankshaft sensor to pop up also? Weird. I am hopeful I have my civic back and reliable again.
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Happy to help, hope it's fixed for good. As another poster mentioned - keep that hole closed, maybe some duct tape. It would suck to lose an engine due to debris making their way in and causing interference and accelerated wear on the timing belt.
 
Sounds like the dealer was using the parts cannon.
I used a cheap (like $11, I IRC) white box eBay crankshaft position sensor on a vehicle once. It's still working just fine as of last weekend.
 
zzyzzx said:
I have seen people run without timing belt covers for years with no issues.
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I don’t intend to run with the hole long term, but I am not in any rush to swap it. Numerous tuners run their cars with exposed cam gears for aesthetics. I doubt there is likely serious risk of the hole in the cover, but it obviously doesn’t benefit the car in any way except service. Still no problems since the sensor swap.
 
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